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France says Non!

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is the End of the Eurocrats dreams for United States of Europe.

    The EU will now cease to integrate, it will remould itself into a union of independent nation states committed to free markets and free trade.

    Sarkozy will be elected President in France, and Merkel Chancellor in Germany along with a Conservative administration in the UK in 2009 and free market, neo-liberal economics will be permanently integrated into the EU.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Cracks good up your way is it ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The EU will now cease to integrate, it will remould itself into a union of independent nation states committed to free markets and free trade.

    Given its the Brits and the Poles who are about the only ones who would like this I cant see it happening.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is the End of the Eurocrats dreams for United States of Europe.

    The EU will now cease to integrate, it will remould itself into a union of independent nation states committed to free markets and free trade.

    Sarkozy will be elected President in France, and Merkel Chancellor in Germany along with a Conservative administration in the UK in 2009 and free market, neo-liberal economics will be permanently integrated into the EU.
    Oh really? According to most if not all observers, the French have voted No chiefly because they reject the idea of free market capitalism a more integrated EU would mean. The next government there is likely to be a Socialist one as well.

    What makes you believe there will be a Tory government in 2009 anyway? Do you and Mark Steyn share the same crystal ball or something? If that is the case I'd advise finding a new clairvoyant- Steyn's predictions have a habit to turn out as utter rubbish.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is the End of the Eurocrats dreams for United States of Europe.

    If only. It's a matter of time, Every huge banking establishment on the continent wants one, just as every one in "the uk" doesn't, and for the exact same selfish reasons.

    As though it matters anyway.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If it really mattered there wouldn't be a public vote. When there's a decent amount of opposing media and political chatter it's because it really doesn't matter to the ruling elite which way the divided public sway. There's just happy that we carry on thinking we're in charge.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The French voted no for a variety of reasons 1) cos it was too right-wing 2) cos half of them hate Chirac 3) because it takes away national sovereignity and doesn't do enough for France.

    Not everyone voted no for the same reason...

    The Dutch vote will be more interesting, if only because it looks like it may be an even more decisive no than France. It may not kill the EU, but if countries like France and Holland are voting no, its certainly got to be a wake-up call to the EU that they need to bring the people along with its grandiose schemes rather than just journalists and politicians.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its much more than that. It means the end of the EU as we know it.
    About fucking time...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    About fucking time...
    Do you want the EU to dissapear completely Captain Slog?

    Do you want to apply for visas from now on every time you travel in the Continent?

    Do you want to be restricted to live and work in your own country only, for all your life, unless a working or living visa for elsewhere can be obtained?

    Do you want trade to drastically reduce and businesses in Britain and elsewhere to lose hundreds of billions of Pounds in trade?

    Not for me, thanks.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyone who beleives this means the end of the EU is seriously delusional, somehow i think it is here to stay.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I love how people cling to the fallacy Britain will lose trade if it leaves the EU or the EU doesn't exist.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    I would have thought the single market would be attractive to a businessman of your standing.
    If you had any clue as to what you're talking about you'd realise that much of British business is against the EU in terms of advancing towards a federal superstate. We've done very nicely being outside the euro, long may it continue.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    If you had any clue as to what you're talking about you'd realise that much of British business is against the EU in terms of advancing towards a federal superstate. We've done very nicely being outside the euro, long may it continue.

    Is that why some of the UK businesses in Northern Ireland are already accepting Euro's?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    One thing I would say about the yes camp (of which I consider myself part of, albeit not nearly as much as I used to) is that if the Constitution is simply 'a tidying up exercise' then it doesn't matter that much if it is not voted through is it? Why the panic?

    Sorry but it is more that "just a tidy". There are additional elements in it.

    Still, the vote makes no difference to the underlying issues, because they are covered by most other treaties.
    Finally, I know some of you could say the same about people who voted for the other option, but I do feel that most of the people who voted No in France (and indeed most of the people who would vote No in here) are doing so for completely the wrong reasons- reasons which I shall not go into for the time being...

    It's this kind of comment which worries me.

    There is no such thing as voting no for the wrong reason, when you do not have the option of voting no in any other forum.

    The French vote was designed to send a specific message (or series of messages) to the people in power. Basically they are saying that we don't like what the EU has become and I really cannot blame them. Okay that wasn't what this questio was about, but the constitution was reinforcing the system which the French didn't want, so no was actually appropriate.

    I look forward to having the same opportunity although I can forsee the Govt trying to weasel their way out of letting us voice our opinion any time soon.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Renzo wrote:
    Is that why some of the UK businesses in Northern Ireland are already accepting Euro's?
    They have the Irish Republic just a few miles across a land border, and even in the days of the Irish Punt & British Pound, both currencies were always accepted, so theres nothing new in it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    They have the Irish Republic just a few miles across a land border, and even in the days of the Irish Punt & British Pound, both currencies were always accepted, so theres nothing new in it.

    if businesses were so opposed to it then they wouldnt be accepting it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Do you want the EU to dissapear completely Captain Slog?
    As far as Britain is concerned I'd like us OUT of the European Federal Superstate, but still to trade with it.
    Do you want to apply for visas from now on every time you travel in the Continent?
    Red herring! Stop talking rubbish lamp boy.
    Do you want to be restricted to live and work in your own country only, for all your life, unless a working or living visa for elsewhere can be obtained?
    Red herring! Stop talking rubbish. People will still be able to work abroad.
    Do you want trade to drastically reduce and businesses in Britain and elsewhere to lose hundreds of billions of Pounds in trade?
    Rubbish, Britain is a vaulable market to many EU countries so I can't see them giving up trade. We can trade without the political tie-up and without the euro, its been proven already.
    Not for me, thanks.
    But then you're a europhile aren't you lamp boy!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What amuses me is how the Euro-scpetics have pounced on this defeat to "prove" that people don't want the EU, or what it could become.

    Fact is, the French didn't. The French rejected liberal free-market economics, they rejected the very model that the Eurosceptics are demaning. Rather than rejecting the "superstate" outright, most commentators feel that the French rejected one version of a "superstate", one that does tie in with French national politics.

    Mind, the people who are "sceptical" of Europe are the very same people who believe that the United States is a trustworthy trading partner, so it isn't surprising that their understanding of European politics is limited to say the least.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There was an excellent and hard hitting article in the Guardian today about Frances bloated and unsustainable welfare system.

    I dont agree with all of it, but it would enlighten you posters who defend Continental welfare systerms to the death in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are failing.

    Why France must grow up
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Right on Mat, absolutely correct.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it would enlighten you posters who defend Continental welfare systerms to the death in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are failing.

    They aren't any less failing than the abject lack of a welfare system in your darling USA, though.

    "A gulf between the haves and the have-nots". Sounds like the UK and USA too, to me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I didnt say I agreed with all the article said, and I would disagree with you in that the USA is the biggest engine for wealth and provides the best living conditions for the largest number of people of any democracy.

    But this isnt about the USA - its about France and France needing to get out of the 1960's.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But the "failings" that the article claims- high unemployment, a huge gulf between the haves and haven'ts- is exactly the same as in the United States. To claim that the French are failing because of this, whilst the US is "succeeding", is rather bizarre IMHO.

    Although I would agree that France is out of sync with the rest of the world, just like Miterrand was in the early 1980s, I don't necessarily think that this makes them "backward".
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Europe needs ot make its mind up. Either we become on unity like the USA or USSR, or we stay as a trade agreement. Not half way, thats just fucking stuff up.

    Its about time the people running it made their minds up, imo.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    USSR,

    Are you serious?

    If Britain decided to opt out of a treaty, you would have French tanks sent in to force them to co-operate?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rich Kid wrote:
    Red herring! Stop talking rubbish lamp boy.
    Fuck off Child Troll.

    Red herring! Stop talking rubbish. People will still be able to work abroad.
    Who told you that?

    Can you move to, say, Australia or Japan without obtaining a visa first?

    If you, or europhobic tossers like Kuntroy-Stink think they can get rid of the EU and its red tape, laws, blah blah blah, and yet retain the immense benefits the EU have brought to everyone in Europe (freedom of movement, being able to live and work anywhere one likes) you might be in for a big surprise.

    No more EU = no more freedom of movement/house in France/ 6 months a year in Spain.

    And how will I laugh.

    Rubbish, Britain is a vaulable market to many EU countries so I can't see them giving up trade. We can trade without the political tie-up and without the euro, its been proven already.
    The EU greatly promotes trade. Without the EU trade will lose billions. Trade will not dissapear of course, but it will be reduced.

    Do I really have to explain this to a "businessman" such as yourself?

    But then you're a europhile aren't you lamp boy!
    Better than a closeminded europhobe, Child Troll.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Red herring! Stop talking rubbish lamp boy.
    Fuck off Child Troll.

    Red herring! Stop talking rubbish. People will still be able to work abroad.
    Who told you that?

    Can you move to, say, Australia or Japan without obtaining a visa first?

    If you, or europhobic tossers like Kuntroy-Stink think they can get rid of the EU and its red tape, laws, blah blah blah, and yet retain the immense benefits the EU have brought to everyone in Europe (freedom of movement, being able to live and work anywhere one likes) you might be in for a big surprise.

    No more EU = no more freedom of movement/house in France/ 6 months a year in Spain.

    And how will I laugh.

    Rubbish, Britain is a vaulable market to many EU countries so I can't see them giving up trade. We can trade without the political tie-up and without the euro, its been proven already.
    The EU greatly promotes trade. Without the EU trade will lose billions. Trade will not dissapear of course, but it will be reduced.

    Do I really have to explain this to a "businessman" such as yourself?

    But then you're a europhile aren't you lamp boy!
    Better than a closeminded europhobe, Child Troll.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote:
    I love how people cling to the fallacy Britain will lose trade if it leaves the EU or the EU doesn't exist.
    Nearly as funny as those who say signing up to the Constitution will mean "SIGNING AWAY OUR SOVEREIGNTY" and that "1,000 YEARS OF BRITISH HISTORY AND HERITAGE DOWN THE PAN" (copyright The S*n & The Daily Mosley).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    What amuses me is how the Euro-scpetics have pounced on this defeat to "prove" that people don't want the EU, or what it could become.

    Fact is, the French didn't. The French rejected liberal free-market economics, they rejected the very model that the Eurosceptics are demaning. Rather than rejecting the "superstate" outright, most commentators feel that the French rejected one version of a "superstate", one that does tie in with French national politics.

    Mind, the people who are "sceptical" of Europe are the very same people who believe that the United States is a trustworthy trading partner, so it isn't surprising that their understanding of European politics is limited to say the least.
    Word.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Nearly as funny as those who say signing up to the Constitution will mean "SIGNING AWAY OUR SOVEREIGNTY" and that "1,000 YEARS OF BRITISH HISTORY AND HERITAGE DOWN THE PAN" (copyright The S*n & The Daily Mosley).

    Funnily enough Aladdin is right and wrong. Its not true that we'll be signing away our soverignity as arguably we signed important chunks of that away years ago... :(
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