Israel's commitment to the peace process: let's build 3,500 more homes in West Bank

BillieTheBot

So it turns out that the rumours that emerged a few weeks ago were mostly true...

Israel to increase size of its largest tumour (sorry, illegal settlement) in the West Bank by 3,500 homes


Don't blame the Palestinians when the truce goes to hell...

So to repeat what I asked a while ago when this news first emerged and then denied, would any Israeli government apologists care to comment on this development?

Former Member

I had a big debate (yes, not discussion, he was civilized) about this with someone at a party this weekend. And while it's hard to comprehend for people who haven't been there, then Maale Edumim due to it's placement is by most considered Israel.
My dad after not having been to Israel for 15 years went with us this summer. So we were invited to a birthday party in Maale Edumim, and it was only when we were there, inside the house and all, that he realised that it is classified as a settlement. You really can't distinguish, like you can with the settlements spread across.

While I agree that the settlements should be cleared, then I highly disagree in the case of Maale Edumim. It is a fluroushing town really, and I imagine it would be the same as someone telling the Brits to clear a town like Bristol or whatever.

Former Member

Bristol is not built on illegally occupied territory, or as the other narrative goes - "disputed territory" - there are no UN Resolutions calling for its return to a dispossessed people. It also has a population 8 times the size of Maale Adumim.....

:rolleyes:

And, announcing that 3500 new homes are going to built cannot, in any seriousness be seen as a "conciliatory gesture" now, can it?

Now, of course the nice, peaceful Israelis don't want to give it back - its "their town" AND it plays a strategic role for them as well:

In other cases, oddly shaped city limits separate large chunks of the West Bank from one another. For instance, Maale Adumim, a community of 30,000 people just east of Jerusalem, extends from just outside Israel's capital almost to the Palestinian city of Jericho, 12 miles east. The finger of land effectively separates the major Palestinian cities of Bethlehem in the south and Ramallah in the north.

The populated area of Maale Adumim fills less than half of its designated territory. The rest is reserved for use as an industrial park, future tourist development and open spaces. "What's the problem?" said Mayor Benny Kasriel. "There's no one living there anyway."

Washington Post Foreign Service

So, do Israeli's want peace or not?

According to Palestinian cabinet Minister Saeb Erekat, "The plan poses a threat to the peace process and is a severe violation of understandings we have reached with Israel."

Other PA officials rejected any attempt to pre-determine the status of Jerusalem.

JP

and, is it, besides being a way of implementing the Matrix of Control, also a sop to the right, as reported in that JP article:

Founding member of Ma'aleh Adumim and mayor since 1992, Benny Kashriel said he believed the timing of Mofaz's approval – four months before the scheduled pullout from the Gaza Strip – has to do with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon attempting to get on the right-wing's good side.

"I think it is connected to the evacuation plan," Kashriel told The Jerusalem Post. "He [Sharon] wants to prove to the Right that he has not given up on strengthening the settlements."

Regarding the expected harsh response by the US over the plan, Kashriel said: "The US always responds strongly but as long as we move along with the plan there won't be a problem with the US. I hope the government is strong enough to withstand the pressure from the US since if we hadn't withstood the pressure decades ago then Ma'aleh Adumim never would have come into existence."

How many more dead Israelis and Palestinians is a good price for stolen land?

We should be told.

:yes:

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

Bristol is not built on illegally occupied territory, or as the other narrative goes - "disputed territory" - there are no UN Resolutions calling for its return to a dispossessed people. It also has a population 8 times the size of Maale Adumim.....

:rolleyes:

Get over yourself. Seriously.
I really don't see the point of your presence on these boards, as it seems as if you're just here to provoke and be annoying. Stop twisting my words or assuming what I mean or imply. Take what I write for face value, will you?
Yes, I do realise that the area is problematic and whatnot but I was coming with an opinion, and there is absolutely no reason for you to be so patronising.

Former Member

Dear Wendy wrote:

Get over yourself. Seriously.
I really don't see the point of your presence on these boards, as it seems as if you're just here to provoke and be annoying. Stop twisting my words or assuming what I mean or imply. Take what I write for face value, will you?
Yes, I do realise that the area is problematic and whatnot but I was coming with an opinion, and there is absolutely no reason for you to be so patronising.

Strawmen are for knocking down.

What exactly is the point of your presence on thse boards then?

Are we going to see yet another thread derailed by JtR ad homs perhaps?

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

Now, of course the nice, peaceful Israelis don't want to give it back - its "their town" AND it plays a strategic role for them as well:

Oh dear, generalizing about "Israelis" again, ftp?

Some might say that having a preconceived idea about a group of people is a prejudice .

And that a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own is a bigot.

Cue hysterical screaming about side-issues.

However, your considered opinion about "Israelis" should be exposed for what it actually is, ftp.

Luckily the peace process does not have to rely on hate-filled extremists like you. Or maybe it does and thats the tragedy.

Former Member

I think Israel should compromise regarding the Disputed Territories and already Israel has made some concessions in Gaza. Maale Adumim however is part of Jerusalem, capital of Israel. It's Israeli.

Former Member

freethepeeps wrote:

Strawmen are for knocking down.

What exactly is the point of your presence on thse boards then?

Are we going to see yet another thread derailed by JtR ad homs perhaps?

The point of my presence is to kill time or to use as an alternative when procrastinating, not to annoy.
There's a huge difference.

Former Member

It's not part of Jerusalem. It's an extension built in Palestinian land.

As FTP's post explains, there is more to it than just keeping some land. It has always been the intention of the Israeli government to sabotage plans of a united and dignified Palestine, allowing at the most for a number of unconnected guettoes forming a fragmented wasteland.

The geography and shape of the settlement, separating Bethlehem and Ramallah, is rather unlikely to be a coincidence.

Former Member

duvdevan wrote:

Oh dear, generalizing about "Israelis" again, ftp?

Actually, I was paraphrasing Disillusioned - I can understand why you would have a problem with Israelis being described as nice and peaceful though......

Now do try addressing the thread, rather than conducting your little ad hom campaign - it's well boring......

Disillusioned wrote:

I think Israel should compromise regarding the Disputed Territories and already Israel has made some concessions in Gaza. Maale Adumim however is part of Jerusalem, capital of Israel. It's Israeli.

Israel made "concessions" in Gaza because the settlements were economically unviable - and when and if the UNILATERAL withdrawal takes place, they will leave behind a landlocked prison, subject to arbitrary attacks by the Israeli military.......

And, several Un Resolutions dispute your claim that Jerusalem is Israeli...... and that goes for maale Adumim too.

Dear Wendy wrote:

The point of my presence is to kill time or to use as an alternative when procrastinating, not to annoy.
There's a huge difference.

The fact that my posts annoy you is a fortunate by product of my posting here - it certainly isn't my motivation for posting here. Yours annoy me as well, but I'm not so self important as to think that your aim is to do so.

So, try reading my posts, following the links and concentrate on those, we might even have a meaningful interaction - though somehow I doubt it.....

Former Member

Luckily the peace process does not have to rely on hate-filled extremists like you. Or maybe it does and thats the tragedy

Yes actually it does. They are easily recognised for the longstanding unaccountable criminals they are by either of two titles, "Zionists" or "Likudniks", either suffices.

As for bigtory, let us again remind our readers of the archetypes and perpetuators of the most detrimental bigotry in the context of "the peace process" (read: the endless excuse for extending the grasp of the Greater Israel agenda set forth from the very ideological inception of Zionism and adhered to up to the present day ) in their own words...

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

Your every post, Duvdevan, along with those of our longtime laughable little likudnik mouthpieces, are the very reflection of the bigotry, lies, and (in point of ethnic fact) true "anti-semitism" of which you impugn those of us here who expose you for what you are.

There will be no lasting Middle East peace until the murderous, apartheid ideology of Zionism is discarded, its leaders put on trial for crimes against humanity and the state of Israel opened up to true pluralistic inclusionary democracy for all (Israelis and Palestinians alike) in a single state. Mark my words.

Former Member

Clandestine wrote:

There will be no lasting Middle East peace until the murderous, apartheid ideology of Zionism is discarded, its leaders put on trial for crimes against humanity and the state of Israel opened up to true pluralistic inclusionary democracy for all (Israelis and Palestinians alike) in a single state. Mark my words.

What a load of rubbish!!
There will never be one state. Fact. I greatly admire Israel for their patience in the face of persistent and aggressive provocation over many many years. Its time the Palestinians faced up to reality, dealt with the terrorists within their ranks and negotaited a lasting peace with Israel. They now have a window of opportunity to do so but I fear yet again they will let it slip from their grasp.
The Israeli's have shown themselves to be tough but pragmatic, and far more advanced democratically than any arab state in the region - and thats against a backdrop of major wars and terror attacks.

Former Member

i think thats the most sensible thing you have said in a long while rich kid

i dont agree with it all, but very well put

Former Member

MrG wrote:

i think thats the most sensible thing you have said in a long while rich kid

i dont agree with it all, but very well put

i don't.
rich kid will say somewhere along the lines that people who flout international law united nations this that and the other ...should be dealt with ...overthrown if needed.

Former Member

Thank you MrG.

Former Member

You obviously ARE living in an ideologically inspired fantasy if you consider a state born of documented terrorism and ethnic cleansing and perpetuated through apartheid is any model of "democracy". Lamentably hypocritical you are indeed!

I have sympathy for you though, you clearly smell rubbish since your every post is mired in it.

Former Member

Rich Kid wrote:

What a load of rubbish!!
There will never be one state. Fact. I greatly admire Israel for their patience in the face of persistent and aggressive provocation over many many years. Its time the Palestinians faced up to reality, dealt with the terrorists within their ranks and negotaited a lasting peace with Israel. They now have a window of opportunity to do so but I fear yet again they will let it slip from their grasp.
The Israeli's have shown themselves to be tough but pragmatic, and far more advanced democratically than any arab state in the region - and thats against a backdrop of major wars and terror attacks.

Sensible words Rich Kid. Excellent post.

Former Member

Sensible words Rich Kid. Excellent post.

And unsurprisingly one could say this is the perfect example of "the blind bleating the blind".

Former Member

Jacq: don't you think it would be more appropriate; for the time being at least in such a sensitive period - to at least halt further construction? It's a gesture isn't it. Whether it will be demolished or whatnot remains to be seen - but in the time being I don't see why they continue to build.

Former Member

Rich Kid wrote:

far more advanced democratically than any arab state .

what is it with you fucking blind people?
being a democracy entitles you to invade steal bomb maim and destroy ...
thats all i keep hearing from you so called inteligent people.
mr hussien flouted resolution this that and the other ...thats enough reson in itself for some of you to back this bullshit war on iraq ...when it comes to israel it's ok that they have flaunted more U.N resolutions and international laws than anyone else on the planet ...but thats ok ...they are a democracy.
are you people real?
can you hear yourselves?

Former Member

Palestinians won't get their independence until Americans get theirs! -


Ariel Sharon:
"We control America"
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.radioislam.org/islam/roligt/big/rislam20.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/toread/frnklin.htm&h=480&w=530&sz=14&tbnid=DJNVMyECQIcJ:&tbnh=116&tbnw=128&start=8&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2Bzionism%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-45,GGLD:en

Former Member

Disillusioned wrote:

Sensible words Rich Kid. Excellent post.

Yeah - indeedy - its the same kind of whitewash that you spout in every post .... a complete execricise in newspeak.

I could give you some very graphic testimonies from Israeli soldiers to illustrate this so called patience over many, many years.

I'd start with Deir Yassine, look at Sabra and Shatila, and then of course theres the incredible patience of Kurdi Bear and his bulldozing exploits in Jenin, 2002, and the incredible patience of Operation Rainbow in Rafah 2004 - which would be quite enough to piss on your tea party of lies and propaganda.

And thats 2 minutes work ............

Now, you didn't answer the question, so lets try again shall we?

How many more dead Israelis and Palestinians is a good price for stolen land?

I think its a fair question as you don't want the killing to stop.......

Former Member

http://www.new-enlightenment.com/militarismindex.htm

Former Member

* image too big and although I get what your saying it might need to be done in a less sensationalist manner to be of any constructive value *

Former Member

We should all be so lucky. The construction of 3,500 new homes announced, just like that? Wonder what the market price will be on a nice little starter home? A land without people for people waiting to get on the property ladder, and blow away anyone who doesn't like it...

Former Member

It's high time we provided the Palestinians with some bulldozers to deal with those illegal houses. At the end of the day the Israelis have been using them on legitimate Palestinian homes for decades.

Former Member

The Israeli's could always claim to be economic migrants...

Former Member

NQA wrote:

The Israeli's could always claim to be economic migrants...

And the link is what exactly NQA? Do the economic migrants in the UK run around with tanks, M16s, F16s and a huge arsenal of other weapons including D9s?

Do they shoot British school children at their desks, demolish houses that people live in, put whole cities under curfew? Do they imprison British people without trial and torture them? Do they bulldoze British farms and factories? Have they got sniper towers where they can shoot down residential streets at whim?

Do they claim that some mysterious figure gave them the deeds to British land a few millenia ago?

Former Member

instead of the snide replies from both sides can someone who doesnt mind israel is doing this, please tell me why?

even if its disputed not illegal as some of you like to make out, surely youd try sort out the violence etc etc beforehand

reminds me of the sudetenland and Lebensraum personally :banghead:

what idiots voted these people in

Former Member

I find the anti-Israeli propaganda being pumped out by certain posters both ignorant and extremely unhelpful in what is a very sensitive situation. This small state has had to endure years of continued aggression from all its arab neighbours, there has hardly been a let-up in the wars and terror attacks. It is hardly surprising that they have become very wary of their neigbours in the region but despite this they have made peace with Egypt and hopefully more will follow. The arab states are in the main dictatorships who suppress their own people, and in style of Orwell's Nineteen-Eighty-Four, seek perpetual war with their Jewish neighbour as a useful diversion for their repression at home.

Former Member

And you speak of "propaganda"?

Would you care to explain how illegally occupying other people's country for 4 decades, populating it with illegal settlements, keeping an illegal military presence there and subjecting civilians to 40 years of oppression, abuses, torture and killings has anything to do with security or defence?