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really, why are drugs illegal?

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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    The point is that by giving heroin free on prescription, they no longer need to commit other crimes to fund their habit. Whowhere was worried about the cost of the prescriptions coming out of the tax he pays.
    Prescibed heroin is safer for the addict, free for the addict, and it mean that the addict is in constantly under the eye of a doctor who can also provide clean needles and safe places to inject. This would also help prevent a lot of diseases such as HIV and hepatitis.

    It's so blatently obvious.
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: really, why are drugs illegal?
    Originally posted by Kentish

    Different inside, obviously.
    And I have seen wannabe-"gouched out" addicts being violent.

    I rather doubt it.
    Originally posted by Kentish
    What is psychic pain?

    Of, or pertaining to, the psyche.
    Originally posted by Kentish
    Thanks, I know what heroin is ;)

    Obviously not, by the looks of it.
    Originally posted by Kentish
    Who is "we"? And I hope you don't. Benzodiazepines used in the treatment of acute withdrawal in ethanol detox isn't really the same as methadone for heroin users.

    We as a society. And it is similar, yes. Alcohol and benzo's both work on the GABA receptors in the brain. Benzo's ease alcohol withdrawals.
    Originally posted by Kentish
    My misunderstanding it seems. So drug users should be subject to the same laws as the rest of us?

    Yes.
    Originally posted by Kentish
    I do, have no fear. Just reading your posts doesn't necessarily mean I will agree with them ;)

    No, you clearly aren't reading and understanding.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish
    Wholesale not retail. And you haven't even added VAT.
    But let's not get sidetracked with hypothetical economics. :cool:

    What? The pharm price is the price in the BNF.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish
    I would prefer more money to be invested in examining the root causes of drug use. The sociology of drug use suggests to me that simply wanting to expand the mind or express oneself is not the reason for most hard drug use.

    We agree on something then.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do we provide the drugs on the NHS with a view to getting people off them? Or just to give them what they want recreationally?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Skive
    The point is that by giving heroin free on prescription, they no longer need to commit other crimes to fund their habit. Whowhere was worried about the cost of the prescriptions coming out of the tax he pays.
    Prescibed heroin is safer for the addict, free for the addict, and it mean that the addict is in constantly under the eye of a doctor who can also provide clean needles and safe places to inject. This would also help prevent a lot of diseases such as HIV and hepatitis.

    It's so blatently obvious.
    Doctors aren't there to precribe recreational drugs which provide not therapeutic benefit.
    And it doesn't remove the problem of addiction in the first place.
    How would one qualify for free heroin? Would we have to prove and existing addiction, or simply turn up on a wet Tuesday afternoon and ask for it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish
    It's a fair question, and I'm not going to pretend I have the answer.
    I am too worried about the consequences of legalisation to support that idea. Decriminalisation wouldn't solve any of the associated problems. So I guess that leaves the status quo. I would prefer more money to be invested in examining the root causes of drug use. The sociology of drug use suggests to me that simply wanting to expand the mind or express oneself is not the reason for most hard drug use.
    a lot of drug use is down to curiosity and peer presure. a lot of kids being able to get hold of stuff they shouldn't and seeing it as some rebellious/romantic adventure i think. plus ...in some very deprived areas with all the problems that come with that ...bad parenting ...absolutely friggin non existant parenting even ...plus the fact that an awful lot of money can be made very easily ...none of this helps.
    i don't profess to have all the answers either. the last time this conversation did the rounds on here bong made me stop and think ...would i agree to crack being available at the chemists shop ...thats a hard one and my gut feeling and all my experience with drugs says no.
    it's not easy to deal with this problem but a problem it has become.
    we desperately need to change to something.
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    Originally posted by Kentish
    It's a fair question, and I'm not going to pretend I have the answer.
    I am too worried about the consequences of legalisation to support that idea.

    It can't get much worse though can it.
    Originally posted by Kentish
    Decriminalisation wouldn't solve any of the associated problems.

    It would stop the state treating addicts as criminals, and mean that ordinary, well behaved tax paying individuals, wouldn't get treated as criminals either.
    Originally posted by Kentish
    I would prefer more money to be invested in examining the root causes of drug use. The sociology of drug use suggests to me that simply wanting to expand the mind or express oneself is not the reason for most hard drug use.

    Save you money, I'll tell you why most people do drugs. They're bloody good fun.
    People will always do drugs.
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    What? The pharm price is the price in the BNF.
    Indeed. But that is the price charged to the NHS (see page vi), so presumably not the price a retail chemist would charge a user. And VAT, or some other sales tax, would be added onto that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish
    Doctors aren't there to precribe recreational drugs which provide not therapeutic benefit.

    No is saying they should.
    Originally posted by Kentish
    And it doesn't remove the problem of addiction in the first place.
    How would one qualify for free heroin? Would we have to prove and existing addiction, or simply turn up on a wet Tuesday afternoon and ask for it?

    The same way we prescribe methadone maybe?
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    Do we provide the drugs on the NHS with a view to getting people off them? Or just to give them what they want recreationally?

    It would bring them into contact with doctors who would be far better at providing help than you average smak dealer.
    Originally posted by Kentish
    Doctors aren't there to precribe recreational drugs

    Doctors are there to help those who are ill. Addiction is an illness.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish
    Indeed. But that is the price charged to the NHS (see page vi), so presumably not the price a retail chemist would charge a user. And VAT, or some other sales tax, would be added onto that.

    Still cheaper and purer than street heroin.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Skive
    It would bring them into contact with doctors who would be far better at providing help than you average smak dealer.

    That's not answering the question though, it's the obvious.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    No is saying they should.

    Actually, Skive did. Read the thread.
    The same way we prescribe methadone maybe?
    So only current users would qualify?
    What would be the purpose of the prescription (other than providing a cleaner supply of their drug of choice)? Would there be any therapeutic benefit, and would we still support drug rehab programmes?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Skive
    Doctors are there to help those who are ill. Addiction is an illness.
    But addictions aren't treated by supplying the object of the addiction.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Still cheaper and purer than street heroin.
    You cannot possibly prove that, so kindly let that argument rest.
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    That's not answering the question though, it's the obvious.

    Exactly.

    What's also obvious is that there would be programmes to help them fight their addiction if they choose to. There's no point in trying to get an addict to quit if they simply don't want to.
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Skive
    There's no point in trying to get an addict to quit if they simply don't want to.

    We shouldn't be providing a recreational drug for free unless the addict wants to quit.
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    Originally posted by Kentish
    You cannot possibly prove that, so kindly let that argument rest.

    Cost
    Opioids for s/c IM injection
    Diamorphine
    CD Diamorphine hydrochloride 5mg by s/c or IM injection
    Over the age of 18 years
    Diamorphine 5mg injection. Reconstitute with water for injection and inject 5mg by subcutaneous or intramuscular injection ; NHS cost £0.23
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish
    You cannot possibly prove that, so kindly let that argument rest.

    Yes I can and just have.
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    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    We shouldn't be providing a recreational drug for free unless the addict wants to quit.

    Then they'll still be out there commiting more crimes to give to mmore money to organised crime for more dirty skag, for them to use in more dirty needles to spread more diseases.
    I think I know which is the lesser of the two evils.
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Yes I can and just have.

    You didn't, Skive did, you were either too ignorant or too lazy to do so.

    Though I am slightly surprised.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish

    Actually, Skive did. Read the thread.

    Did he? Where?
    Originally posted by Kentish
    So only current users would qualify?
    What would be the purpose of the prescription (other than providing a cleaner supply of their drug of choice)? Would there be any therapeutic benefit, and would we still support drug rehab programmes?

    Details would have to be worked out, but yes, we would still provide rehabs and yes there would be therapeutic benefit, as there is with methadone.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fiend_85
    You didn't, Skive did, you were either too ignorant or too lazy to do so.

    Though I am slightly surprised.

    I'm in the middle of cooking dinner.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Yes I can and just have.
    No, you really haven't.

    You made up an arbitrary figure for 1g of heroin at £80, and then quote the wholesale price of diamorph from the BNF. QED? I don't think so.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: really, why are drugs illegal?
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    I rather doubt it....
    Of, or pertaining to, the psyche....
    Obviously not, by the looks of it....
    We as a society. And it is similar, yes. Alcohol and benzo's both work on the GABA receptors in the brain. Benzo's ease alcohol withdrawals....
    Yes....
    No, you clearly aren't reading and understanding.
    A little knowledge is a dangerous thing :rolleyes:
    And I'll thank you not to tell me what I do and do not know about heroin use :rolleyes:
    And don't try and blind us with science. Treating withdrawals and treating addiction are two totally different things :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Did he? Where?

    There:
    Originally posted by Skive
    The point is that by giving heroin free on prescription, they no longer need to commit other crimes to fund their habit. Whowhere was worried about the cost of the prescriptions coming out of the tax he pays.
    Prescibed heroin is safer for the addict, free for the addict, and it mean that the addict is in constantly under the eye of a doctor who can also provide clean needles and safe places to inject. This would also help prevent a lot of diseases such as HIV and hepatitis.

    It's so blatently obvious.
  • Options
    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,286 Skive's The Limit
    _
    Swiss Trials: When the Swiss government implemented nation-wide heroin prescription trials in 1994 the evidence overwhelmingly supported the social benefits of heroin maintenance._ Some 1000 volunteers – only heroin addicts with at least two unsuccessful experiences in methadone or other conventional treatment programs were considered – took part in the experiment.
    _
    __ The results so far: criminal offences and the number of criminal offenders dropped 60 percent, the percentage of income from illegal and semi-legal activities fell from 69 to 10 percent; illegal heroin and cocaine use declined dramatically; stable employment increased from 14-32 percent; physical health improved enormously, and most participants greatly reduced their contact with the drug scene.
    _
    __ There were no deaths from overdoses, and no prescribed drugs were diverted to the black market._ A cost-benefit analysis of the program found a net economic benefit of $30 per patient per day, mostly because of reduced criminal justice and health care costs.

    Taken from here!
    Weekender Offender 
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's hardly what's being suggested here though.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    I'm in the middle of cooking dinner.

    You still didn't prove anything, dinner or not. Enjoy your meal.
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