Fox hunting: the beginning of the end?

Former Member

Originally posted by hobbs
if you read an earlier post of mine i said my experince of hunts were of great respect to our land, even visits before to ask.

I have read that, but you are pointing out yourself as evidence. In reality it's just an isolated example. I have countless friends in the country, and they, and their neighbours, complain endlessly about the hunt and their disregard for property. Especially cars parked on the side of public roads. I know it's parked there at the owner's risk, but when you drive past a car that's covering part of the road, you take care, don't you? You go slowly so that you don't damage someone elses' property. You don't charge through without a care in the world. I've seen hunt folk do this. They have charged past cars, scratched them, been onto peoples' own land and damaged property and haven't apologised. You may not have had problems. Perhaps the hunt near where you live is civilised and respectful of others. Over here near London, they tend to be arseholes. I like to think that this is because in the day, they are heading up businesses that treat all human life with contempt, so the exercise the same moral vigour at leisure.

Former Member

Originally posted by dr_carter
I have read that, but you are pointing out yourself as evidence. In reality it's just an isolated example. I have countless friends in the country, and they, and their neighbours, complain endlessly about the hunt and their disregard for property. Especially cars parked on the side of public roads. I know it's parked there at the owner's risk, but when you drive past a car that's covering part of the road, you take care, don't you? You go slowly so that you don't damage someone elses' property. You don't charge through without a care in the world. I've seen hunt folk do this. They have charged past cars, scratched them, been onto peoples' own land and damaged property and haven't apologised. You may not have had problems. Perhaps the hunt near where you live is civilised and respectful of others. Over here near London, they tend to be arseholes. I like to think that this is because in the day, they are heading up businesses that treat all human life with contempt, so the exercise the same moral vigour at leisure.

i hear what your saying, but go to any popular spot and you find moronic parking, heck even at tescos people park like complete arses.

So all people that hunt treat human life with contempt, is this what your saying?

Former Member

Originally posted by hobbs
i hear what your saying, but go to any popular spot and you find moronic parking, heck even at tescos people park like complete arses.

So all people that hunt treat human life with contempt, is this what your saying?

No, i'm saying that in Essex and Suffolk as an area (and yes, I do have friends across each of these counties, and they all say the same thing), people that hunt do not care about anything apart from themselves and their little clan.

How is parking carefully up the kerb, with minimal obstruction to both road and pavement, moronic? and still the hunt doesn't care. Heck, i've seen one load storm through a churchyard and severely damage a 300 year old gravestone. I can't comment for anyone else, but round here they don't care, and that is my experience. Which is why I think they're arseholes.

Former Member

Originally posted by dr_carter
How is parking carefully up the kerb, with minimal obstruction to both road and pavement, moronic?

pavements are not for parking on, parking spaces are for parking in.

anyway, we have different experiences of hunts, perhaps the folk down here in Devon are just more relaxed.

Former Member

Originally posted by hobbs
which is fair enough, its a bit like my experience of the NHS and someone elses.

Its often the bad press that gets more attention.

Its not from the press, its from talking to farmers a few years ago.

Former Member

Originally posted by Blagsta
Its not from the press, its from talking to farmers a few years ago.

sorry, it isn't the press i mean, rather, it is only the bad stories we here about. ie, i had a bad experience so I must tell the world about it.

like with the NHS, its only ever the problems never how good they are.

Former Member

It was quite common when I used to hunt sab, for small farmers to tell us about how the hunt used to ride roughshod over their property and generally act as though they owned the entire countryside.

Former Member

Originally posted by hobbs
i agree, but,

the pressure from us as consumers (via the supermarket) for cheap food means farmers, in order to survive, must maximise yields at the minimum cost. So having no hedges means that they can combine more easily which again saves money. spraying something the sales reps has been trained to promotes is seen as an easy option.

I think of drug reps in hospitals; with doctors they have the time to challenge the data presented whereas with a farmer who's been up since 4.30am (and not had a holiday since 1967) has someone who says this will make your life easier and make you money, well the pressure to use it is immense.

Rural decline is a massive problem. the average farm income has dropped to about £10 000, farmers commit suicide at a rate of about 1 a week. fox hunting is actually a very small part of rural life, the attention paid to it is disproportional.

True. But farmers have been fairly complicit in a lot of this to maximise their profits, its only relatively recently that they've started to feel the pinch.
I'm sorry, but if you start to treat animals and the countryside etc as purely capitalist commodities, what do you expect?

Former Member

Originally posted by Blagsta
It was quite common when I used to hunt sab, for small farmers to tell us about how the hunt used to ride roughshod over their property and generally act as though they owned the entire countryside.

were you unbiased in the selection of farmers you chose to talk to? or, were the farmers unbiased in talking to you in that you would have been an ally to their cause

I have spoken to farmers and people who thought that sabs were interferring, disrespectful twats. that dosen't mean they were, i just spoke to people that thought that.

i could easily go through life only selecting to hear the things i want to hear, things that support my belief system, only that isn't particulary healthy, so I don't

Former Member

They were the ones that used to come up and give us support.

Former Member

Originally posted by Blagsta
True. But farmers have been fairly complicit in a lot of this to maximise their profits, its only relatively recently that they've started to feel the pinch.
I'm sorry, but if you start to treat animals and the countryside etc as purely capitalist commodities, what do you expect?

farmers are complicit, just as we are complicit - by shopping in supermarkets, by wearing leather shoes and so on.

I personally have never treated animals as capitalist commodities. I grew up living largely self sufficiently- including meat, in a very rural community.

farming has never been easy, but now it is even harder driven on by the fact that the country side is being "transformed" in to commuter zones, where the inhabitants are mere economical units

Former Member

farming families around here aren't usualy highly educated people. i'm not sying they are stupid ...far from it.
but when the big industrial farms and the lorded estates start using chemicals/hormones/high tech etc ...the family farms have no choice realy.
they see industrial farmers producing bigger fatter and more of .,..they have to follow suit to survive.
whoever was responsible for putting dead animals in cattle food ...labelled as protien ...should be held criminaly responsible for mad cow shit ...not your average family farmer.
there are of course plain bad farmers ...two familys of them near me ...dilapidated buildings and fencing ...more deaths per head of cattle etc ...down the local pubs and markets they are mostly shunned.

Former Member

Originally posted by morrocan roll
whoever was responsible for putting dead animals in cattle food ...labelled as protien ...should be held criminaly responsible for mad cow shit ...not your average family farmer.

Wasn't it Maggie Thatcher that gave the ok, because it would cut costs and 'stimulate growth' in the agricultural sector? It's getting to the day and age where nothing is sacred in the name of profit. It's going to be more cost effective to kill off old pensioners rather than give them a pension so who knows when the government will go to the extreme.

Former Member

Originally posted by TheShyBoyInTheCorner
Wasn't it Maggie Thatcher that gave the ok, because it would cut costs and 'stimulate growth' in the agricultural sector? It's getting to the day and age where nothing is sacred in the name of profit. It's going to be more cost effective to kill off old pensioners rather than give them a pension so who knows when the government will go to the extreme.

as much as i would love to blame that woman for everything ...i believe the real culprits to be the big chemical and feeds comoanies.
as for the pensioners ...are you trying to scare me!!!!!!!!!!

Former Member

From my experience...

I did a little research for the local college paper to write an anti hunt article a while back, although because a person on the board didn't like me, he wouldn't have it published (because his fag hag said no too, or something... we go back a long way and he's not a nice guy)... ANyway.

Her article... and I kick myself for not saving the back copy (as my comic strip was in it) stated the reasons why they believed fox hunting went on. And what she put was the social event, tradition and jobs. Also that foxes are pests and kill for fun too... yadda yadda... So I'll put a few points forward I came up with.

• Jobs - Why are people fretting so much about jobs losses? When hundreds have been lost in my local area because factories are closing... and to be honest I can't see as much of a fuss being kicked up about that. Jobs will always come and go, it's a fact of life.
• Foxes being pests - Now I heard (Mr Roll, can ya fill me in?) that you can get fox proof fences from the RSPCA. Hopefully it's true. But there must be some way to build a pen that foxes can't get in to.
• Foxes killing for fun - Do they? From the sources I've read and seen on TV the reason why they kill the whole coop is so they can drag the hens out one by one and bury them. But usually they're disturbed and end up leaving some dead hens they haven't yet picked up.
• Tradition - Well dog fighting, bear baiting and execution has been banned, why not fox hunting.
• Hunt saboteurs (spl?) - The whole animal rights thingy can go both ways. I know some who will go out and beat people up for their cause... Like those that break in to labs and brand people and shit... However, in Cheshire it's been reported that huntsmen have kicked people for peaceful protests... whether this is true or not, it probably goes both ways.
• Farming communities will suffer - Anybody see the news? Apparently farmers are suffering because of Tesco selling cheaper veg. It sounds harsh... But as technology develops (personally I think) rural communities will suffer... as sad as it is.

Former Member

Originally posted by morrocan roll
farming families around here aren't usualy highly educated people. i'm not sying they are stupid ...far from it.
but when the big industrial farms and the lorded estates start using chemicals/hormones/high tech etc ...the family farms have no choice realy.
they see industrial farmers producing bigger fatter and more of .,..they have to follow suit to survive.
whoever was responsible for putting dead animals in cattle food ...labelled as protien ...should be held criminaly responsible for mad cow shit ...not your average family farmer.
there are of course plain bad farmers ...two familys of them near me ...dilapidated buildings and fencing ...more deaths per head of cattle etc ...down the local pubs and markets they are mostly shunned.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about - the wholesale industrialisation of agriculture by big landowners etc, the commodification of land/nature etc

Former Member

I'll address 2 of your points MoonRat

Originally posted by MoonRat

Foxes killing for fun - Do they? From the sources I've read and seen on TV the reason why they kill the whole coop is so they can drag the hens out one by one and bury them. But usually they're disturbed and end up leaving some dead hens they haven't yet picked up.

Foxes killing for fun? I've heard that before from pro-hunt folk and it's utter bollocks. How can foxes kill for fun? Fun is a human concept. It's patently absurd.

Originally posted by MoonRat
Hunt saboteurs (spl?) - The whole animal rights thingy can go both ways. I know some who will go out and beat people up for their cause... Like those that break in to labs and brand people and shit... However, in Cheshire it's been reported that huntsmen have kicked people for peaceful protests... whether this is true or not, it probably goes both ways.

As an ex-sab, I can tell you why some sabs started to get violent - it's because they were fucking sick of getting chased, beaten, sexually assaulted and having their vehicles vandalised by hunt followers and having the police turn a blind eye. Some sabs decided to play the hunt at their own game. Now I don't necessarily agree with this, but I do understand it.

Former Member

foxes do not kill for entertainment!
if a fox catches one of your chickens in the open it will take that one and scarper fast.
the problem is when the fox enters a shed or closed yard or fenced in area ...the other chickens can't do a runner far enough ...the chickens panick and start flapping about crazy. this scares the fox ...the fox goes beserk and lashes out at anything within range with the aim of silencing the fuckers big time ...so you end up with a load of dead chickens.

don't know about rspca fencing moon ...maybe they do for very small areas but fencing is seriously expensive.the best deterrent is to have chickens in a farmyard around about your house. the farm yard dog is ...cats ...noise and smells is enough to deter the fox in daytime. sadly it aint possible for everyone to have their chickens at home.
i shoot the buggars if i see them ...or shoot at them.
those who hunt foxes ...do it for pleasure ...all the other arguments are meaningless.
it is done for pleasure ...simple as.

Former Member

Originally posted by hobbs
i agree, but,

the pressure from us as consumers (via the supermarket) for cheap food means farmers, in order to survive, must maximise yields at the minimum cost. So having no hedges means that they can combine more easily which again saves money. spraying something the sales reps has been trained to promotes is seen as an easy option.

I'm no expert but from what I've seen and read, I would say there is growing demand from the consumer for better food i.e organic, free range etc and people are prepared to pay more for it. We currently have to import a lot of it because there isn't enough grown in this country.

The public would support farmers getting adequate government help to convert to organic. If we can pay people not to grow certain crops we should be helping those who wish to take advantage of this growing market.

Former Member

thats the thing, if we let farmers in poor countries export to us witohut tariffs and us subsiding, theyd probably outdo on price easily, though locally porduced food has its benefits like freshness, and less wasted fuel transporting the food

thus said, we could out do them on quality anyday, that is how we could compete

Former Member

The way I understand it is that current WTO rules mean that developing countries aren't allowed any form of trade protectionism to the detriment of their economies.
But that's another thread.