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Essential support for under 25s
Essential support for under 25s
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Cruel to be kind, You seem to be giving two arguments. One saying that parents can offer support, but the other contradictory one, is to say that parents should be told as a way of punishing the girl for having underage sex, therefore scaring her into not doing it again.
Do you think the end justifies the means? So what if there is a risk of a lot of girls being thrown out, humiliated - it serves them right - bad bad sexual girls who should be virgins. Lets humiliate them for having sex.
I also think its interesting that you didnt tell your father. How would you have felt if you had been forced to tell him, possibly affecting his feelings for you for a long time.
This utopia of "when parents had to be told" that you keep falling back into never existed.
How many times do I have to say that? It isn't my opinion, it's fact.
I thought that too.
You had your reasons for not telling your father, possibly facing up to your responsibilities was one thing, but that you might dissapoint him was a major concern by your own admission.
Basically you made your choice and now you want to deny that choice to other people. That sucks.
Children who don't tell their parents about abortion do so for a reason. It is not up to us to second guess them, to force them into to doing something against their will like you are suggesting. Yes, doctors should encourage a child to tell her parents - but the wishes of the patients should always be paramount in this case just like it is in any other.
Just got to pick this up slightly as you seem to be ignoring section 13 -
Section 13 Child sex offences committed by children or young persons
(1) The person under 18 commits an offence if he does anything which would be considered an offence under any sections 9 to 12 {these are the under age sex offences} if he were aged 18 {he is used throughout the Sex Offences Act but should be read as he or she - only section 1 applies to men only}
The point is that an underage child could be guilty of an offence if they committed a crime with someone who was also underage.
The other point I'd make is that a underage girl who has sex with an adult isn't committing a crime - they are the victims of a crime.
Learn her lessons? What about those people who become pregnant despite using contraception? And if the girl didn't use contraception in the first place then I would argue that the parents weren't responsible enough in the first place to raise a child with a braincell and are unlikley to be as sympathetic as you think all parents would be.
Furthermore, it seems that you are suggesting that because she hasn't told her parents she is more likely to get pregnant again and have another abortion. This is highly unlikely. The pain and anguish that will have been caused the first time will probably be sufficient to put the young lass off sex for quite a while.
You have all been using the same excuse everytime I say something different as to why I believe consenting to an abortion without the parents awareness is a bad idea.
Your excuse. That's the law. So it must be right. They're entitled to confidentilality. You assume every/most girls will be forced, abused, unhappy if they tell their parents; when in most cases with kids, they just coward away, taking the easy route out.
Guys, you have been stating your opinion in how this will help in some situations. You ain't covering your tracks and thinking about all the girls.
I have made my point perfectly clear what those girls can do if they are under any threat by their parents.
Also have mentioned what harm this will cause them, through sexual abusers who are known to take their victims to an abortion clinic, by erasin their tracks and for girls who genuinely need help and protection from their parents, will be handled in court.
I used myself as an example as to why I didn't tell my dad, yet my mum; cause it proved my age on how I couldn't face my responsiblities by lying to my dad, though still feel better I told my mum even though I had no choice as she had to come with me. As like most kids, they underestimate what help their parents can offer them... as kids are to blind to see they can't use their 'maturity' to fool people that they can looka fter themselves, when they are just kids that are too young to understand how this will really effect them for the rest of their lives.
Really? Wonder what my mate was thinking when she had 2 abortions and a miscarriage and still only 15 I think it was. I know she was a year or two younger than me at the time.
Right back at ya boyo.
Prove that all girls will learn their lessons and not use the it as 'quick fix' and I'll take a step back now.
Are you suggesting that any time a minor get pregnant then the police should prosecute her and her partner...?
Are you saying that confiendiality is a trivial matter? If so then you disagree with a huge number of professionsal in bot the health and legal world. You also disagree with the Data Protection Act and the Human Rights Act.
Just for information.
No I don't think that anyone has suggested that the majority would be treated badly. The arguement is that the majority would tell their parents on their own, but that a minority would be treated badly.
Therefore the confidentiality issue would only apply in those cases where the child felt unable, for whatever reason, to tell their parents.
I really cannot see how this is different from your suggestion other than it avoids a court appearance which would give the parents an inkling that something was wrong...
Actually I'd say it was the other way around.
Those who are happy to tell their parents can and would, those that aren't wouldn't.
You proposal further punishes those who aren't.
Ignoring the issue of medical records along the way, and the fact that abuse doesn't always end with pregnancy and yet we seem perfectly capable of convicting abusers regardless...
Which is why the suggestion is, and has always been, that there are other adults who can give this advice and yet still maintain a level of confidentiality.
Children who don't tell their parents aren't expected to go through the whole process alone.
But agin, I remind you that you made your choice and yet would deny it to others.
It doesn't matter why you didn't tell you Dad just that you had the right not to.
That law has been broken, they either remove or enforce it.
I believe an adult in entitled to confiendiality (16+) whilst they are know the to law that they are a minor, I believe in serious circumstances were the parent has the responislity to protect them, need to know what they need to protect them from.
Ahh but that's were you are wrong. The majority of the minors will only have told their parents, because in order to have the abortion they needed to have their parents awareness.
And for the minors that are unhappy being under the care of their parents should be dealt with and hopefully fing a responsible legal guardian that will be able to look after the minor.
/b]
So you can ensure all girls will learn their lessons, will not abuse their own bodies by taking it for granted they will not get pregnant again unless they wish to keep it and know the child will be able to recover without their parents awareness of her state ??
Ahh, come on - No child/or adult is ever happy to admit they got pregnant and are not planning in keeping the baby -
You proposal further punishes those who aren't.
And you deny that in reality not all girls will be happy with their decisions when it's too late to take it back. And thinking they will cope with just the help of their friends, if they have any.
It's my legal training;)
That's the point I was trying to make.
Tough call.
In all cases?
This is the problem.
I believe that confidentiality should apply for everyone with very few exceptions - the main one being that a person is not able to give consent because they either don't have the mental capacity or are comatose for example.
That the majority of health professionals, politicians and the legal professions agree with me says something, wouldn't you say?
Except they didn't need their parents permission or for their parents to know.
If they did then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The only reason it came about is because a mother went to the press because her child didn;t tell her until after the fact and this prompted the Govt to publish confirmation of the existing guidance.
There is a difference to being happy with the care of your parents under normal circumstances and what you believe would hapopen if you dropped this kind of news on their laps.
We should protect those who are in fear.
Firstly you talk about "learning a lesson" as if you want the children to be punished in some way.
Secondly, I'd say finding yourself preganant and having an abortion is a relatively big lesson.
Thirldy you assume that telling the parents will ensure that the same things doesn't happen again, just as you assume that not telling them would increase the probability of a repeat.
I'm sorry, but I don't follow.
If someone wants to tell their parents, then they can and will. Nothing in the guidance changes that.
If they don't want to tell, then we cannot and should not force them to. That would be a punishment.
I don't see how giving people the freedom of free will is a punishment...
No I don't. I have never denied that women find the decision easy to live with and I challenge you to show where I have said that.
I also don't assume that their parents can fix everything either. I don't assume that parents have the ability to offer support even if they have the will.
Abortion is a highly emotive subject and people should get all the support that they believe that they need. Unlike you, however, I don't believe that parental support should be forced on them. I believe that they should have the right to chose an alternative if they wish.
I really struggle to follow your arguments, to be honest. I am talking about free will, you are talking about control. I am talking about offering people the choice of which support they feel most confortable with, you argue that parental involvement is a must.
What I am saying is that in some cases it is actually less of a trauma for people to be offered no parental involvement, you seem to see that trauma as "just rewards".
You are making claims to justify your position, and you need to back those claims up. We are saying that thsoe claims are irrelevant because of the possibility of other causes of action, the possibility doesn't have to be high because the law has to be exact.
Again, irrelevant.
There is a possibility of it happening. It may only be slight, but the possibility is there. The law must take into account all possibilities, not just the likely outcome. The law ghas to be exact and uncompromising or else it is unenforceable.
We don't have to, as we are illustrating the possibility. For most girls the parents will be told anyway, by the girl themselves. But it is the minority position that is important, as with any legal guideline.
No, you haven't. You have said "a court will decide". That, I am afraid, does not wash, because courts demand certainty. There has to be strict definitions on what constitutes risk or else the system cannot work as it is unpredictable; therefore we are asking you what constitutes risk?
And if you do not believe a girl is at risk, and you tell the parents regardless of her wishes, what happens when that girl IS thrown out? What happens if the parents decide that the girl CAN'T have an abortion, even when the girl has decided that she wants one, and she has talked with a variety of people in order to reach that decision?
What you propose lacks clarity and it lacks cohesion. It doesn't take into account the minority position, it does not have strict boundaries, and it flies in the face of 50 years of ECHR and UK caselaw.
Which covers the "the courts will decide" argument.
They already have.
They disagree with breaching confidentiality.
~~~~
Example. It is illegal for a doctor to inform the Smoking Cessation service that any patinet smokes, if they provide identifying information, without the patient's consent and regardless of the age of the smoker. This inspite of the fact that the doctor knows that medically this would be the right thing to do.
Now, it is also illegal for a child to buy cigarettes. Should the doctor tell the child's parents if he finds out that the child is smoking?
Of course.
Children are the property of the parents until they reach the legal age of responsibility :rolleyes:
I notice that you constantly choose to answer the queries for which you have a personal experiece example to back up your belief but you've failed to address the other things I said!
Also, a miscarriage isn't a choice, which you make it sound by lumping it in with abortion.
So again...
What about those people who become pregnant despite using contraception? And if the girl didn't use contraception in the first place then I would argue that the parents weren't responsible enough in the first place to raise a child with a braincell and are unlikley to be as sympathetic as you think all parents would be.
Usually that helps to know what actually does go through a young girls head at the time.
It is indeed. But her miscarriage was caused by complicated of her last abortion. Don't know mecial term... but it made her womb too weak to hold the baby.
I still feel strongly the parents have the right to know to help support their daughter from recovering from the most traumatic time she would feel from it all.
So how about you explain to me what a girl should do when her abuser sends her to a clinic to have abortion? Bare in mind the girl is frightened and is being controlled by her abuser that only wants to erase his tracks ??
You keep talking about responsibility though, and surely looking back at how you've defined a parent's responsibility they should have been responsible enough to educate their children not to shoplift in the first place, or indeed to use contraception?
You still haven't addressed the issue of those teens who become pregnant by accident, what 'lesson' will they be learning?
You also said that it will have been lesson enough having the abortion in the first place but when I suggested that you cited the example of your mate who had two abortions. So do you believe that an abortion would 'teach them a lesson' not to get pregnant again or not? You've contradicted yourself there.
You begin to assume it is the parents fault then, am I right? Not the child that is 'mature' enought to make her own decisions?
She had those abortions behin her mums back as well at the miscarriage.
The number of times this is likely to happen is minimum in comparison to the number of girls whose parents would not be loving and supporting of their daughter. If an under 16 year old was not entitled to the protection granted them by law should they want an abortion without informing their parents then we would have far more teenage mothers walking around.
If the girls parents are responsible enough to behave in a rational and caring manner upon finding out their daughter is pregnant then yes, I think that the girl should be encouraged to tell her parents but I think that is her personal choice, not yours.
Parents are responsible for their children, but they do not own them. Parents have the responsibility to look after their child- if the child was giving birth on the floor and a doctor was not called, then the parents would be breaking the law. But if the child receives medical attention the parents do not have the right to dictate what this treatment is, as it is widely regarded that a child is an autonomous being as soona s he or she can understand what it means to be autonomous.
As for your oft-repeated claiom about school truancy, parents have the responsibility to do everything reasonable to ensure attendance at school. If the parent walks the child into the classroom and then the child walks straight out once the parent has left, the parent has discharged their responsibility.
I also find it quite patronising that you think that friends are incapable of offering support. Parents aren't any more capable of offering support just becaus ethey're parents; if parent and child are close enough then the child will tell the parents, if they are not then the parent couldn't support the child emotionally anyway.
Not think that's something you just assume rather than actually a fact. Again you need to think of all girls.
I said that an abortion would surely be such a horrid experience that a girl would be unlikely to get pregnant again. You disagreeing, citing the example of your friend. Then you went on to say:
This suggests that you think having an abortion is likely to a detterent for future underage pregnancies.
I would also like to know why you think a girl who falls pregnant under the age of 16 deserves to be punished?!
And even then, it is up to the child to decide whether charges are pressed. If child abuse is suspected then doctors have the power to notify Social Services anyway, as far as I am aware.
And people say I repeat myself...
You will not look at my point of view for you see it differently whilst you continuely say the same thing; as I do.
Wheres this getting us?
NO WHERE!!!
But it's IRRELEVANT :banghead:
Patient confidentiality is the most important thing, it's quite a simple concept to grasp. If the girl won't say who the father is then it DOESN'T MATTER about sexual abuse; if a girl is under teh contreol of an abuser she won't tell on him anyway.
Jeesh.
Nope.
I'm not suggesting that the lawyers etc believe something because I have said it.
Perhsap I should have said I agree with them.
But my opinion is based on the job that I do, and therefore an understanding of why those laws are in place.
Indeed, a long time. Perhaps you should ask yourself why that situation changed.
Being grounded and being made homeless are slightly different, wouldn't you say?
So you accept that abortion is trauma enough? Why do you therefore raise the issue of girls "learning a lesson"?
What makes you so sure that parents automatically have the ability to offer such support.
Especially those who disagree with the child's choice?
I agree that the child needs support, I just don't believe that parents are the best (or only) people to provide that support.
I never suggested that they did. In fact my experience shows that some people see it as a form of contraception. Even those who tell their parents.
Correct. So what you would want to do is add to the trauma which you admit is punishment enough.
Sorry, wrong. The parents are made fully aware of their childs action in that instance because it's the parent who would ultimately be punished.
Different issue. We are talking about punishment for getting pregnant. And the police do not and should not prosecute in all cases of under-16 pregnancy. Especially when a charge would put the child at risk...
Nope, but then confidentiality isn't an issue then.
As I said some time ago, confidentiality in healthcare over rides moral obligations.
The doctors/nursing staff can even only inform the police in exceptional circumstances. As a healthwarker I am not allowed to give the police any information about a patient without it first being passed through Caldicott, or a court order.
Even if it would be in the patients interests.
No problem, I promise I won't tell your Mum
1. just because youve had an abortion, doesnt give you insight into how every young girl feels about it when they go through it.
2. Thats a shame for your friend, but statistically abortion is not nearly as damaging to the body as carrying a baby to term and childbirth. Just thought id mention that.
Its obvious you look down on your `friend`, but cut her some slack, if her body cant handle an abortion, it probably would have been worse off giving birth.
3. Didnt quite understand that bit.
4. I think in those circumstances, if the girl was suspected of being abused then social services would be called. I think that is the only time when confidentiality can be breached - or can it? - im not 100% sure.
Actually it is very much so related to abortions - You are denyin that fact about how many cases could be revealed by stopping abusers sending their victims to clinics.