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New abortion rules

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    You will not look at my point of view for you see it differently whilst you continuely say the same thing; as I do.

    In a lovely fluffy ideal world the child won't get pregnant, or if she does she'll tell the parents and everyone will be happy.

    You have not explained how a "rsik" will be defined, or what would happen to girls who cannot prove that they are "at risk".

    You have not explained what will happen if a parent and child have different views on what the best course of action is.

    You have not explained what the point of telling a parent is, if there is "no requirement for parental consent".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    Exactly what I said, thank you.

    Not quite. The parents do not have to be told by the doctor. After all they could be the perpetrator.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    Actually it is very much so related to abortions - You are denyin that fact about how many cases could be revealed by stopping abusers sending their victims to clinics.

    Eh?

    No more cases would be revealed, if the girl won't tell a doctor about abuse she won't tell her parents. Notifying parents about the operation won't change anything.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    1. just because youve had an abortion, doesnt give you insight into how every young girl feels about it when they go through it.

    I never said I did - I however made it clear and some girls would indeed do what I did. Which is why I only set msyelf as an example.
    2. Thats a shame for your friend, but statistically abortion is not nearly as damaging to the body as carrying a baby to term and childbirth.


    But when you have an 2 abortions within 2 years. Things changed in her case.

    4. I think in those circumstances, if the girl was suspected of being abused then social services would be called. I think that is the only time when confidentiality can be breached - or can it? - im not 100% sure.

    Always do find a loop hole, don't we?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    You are denyin that fact about how many cases could be revealed by stopping abusers sending their victims to clinics.

    What fact?

    Do you have any information which would indicate how many children are taken to a clinic by their abuser?

    Would telling their parents stop that, if a) the abuser was a parent, or b) the child refused to name the abuser, or c) the abuser signed the consent form claiming to be the guardian?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    Exactly what I said, thank you.

    No it wasn't :confused:

    I was pointing out that a lot of sexual abuse happens in the home- i.e. the parents would have an inkling, ro be directly involved.

    And you STILL hacven't explained the link between telling parents and abuse being "uncovered". If the girl won't tell before, she won't tell after, if she as "fearful" as you state.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    I think in those circumstances, if the girl was suspected of being abused then social services would be called. I think that is the only time when confidentiality can be breached - or can it? - im not 100% sure.

    It can be breached, but the doctor needs to be fairly confident that their assumption is correct. Usually such a breach involves more than just the doctor alone though, second opinions, legal advice etc.

    It's not a simple case of picking up the phone.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    But when you have an 2 abortions within 2 years. Things changed in her case.

    And?

    Abortion isn't without risk, but it's not as risky as carrying a child to full term when you are still only developing.

    And if she wants an abortion every week, it's HER CHOICE, non?

    Always do find a loop hole, don't we?

    :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can’t believe how willing you all are to turning a blind eye and saying, ‘ah well life isn’t fluffy, so we need to get on with it’ – ‘that’s the law so it must be right’

    Again, I ask you to cover your tracks;

    • How do we protect those girls that have been forced to go to an abortion clinic by their abuser?
    • How can we assure that they will not use this as a second contraceptive method?
    • How can you stop a girl from making a mistake in getting pregnant and then making an even bigger one by having the child terminated only to avoid seeing the disappointment of their parents’ face?

    Have you any idea how lacy your attitude sounds. You are not realising what damage this can effect others.

    I have taken in to account that there are minors living in an unhappy home, through abuse and does now want to be put into any more risk by telling them about her pregnancy. But that is the only issue you have all covered.

    A child like that should not be in that situation in the first place and should be put in care of a legal guardian that will know what is best for them.

    When a minor is at school and misbehaves, the teacher would take action by phoning the parent. If a minor is caught shop lifting, they are brought to the parent. Why?
    So then the parent can take responsibility and punish the child. Whilst they are leaving under their roof, I believe a parent should have some control over the child to help teach them know what’s right from wrong and when they make mistakes, show them how to learn from them. So when is comes to a minor breaking the law, by having underage sex and gets pregnant, the parent should then have the right to know to help recover from those mistakes.

    What makes a failed parent is when they sit back and ‘hope’ they will talk to them and let the rest slide. And say, ‘That’s life’.

    My opinion indeed.
    Just like you have all expressed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    I have taken in to account that there are minors living in an unhappy home, through abuse and does now want to be put into any more risk by telling them about her pregnancy. But that is the only issue you have all covered.

    You see, you miss the point. The "unhappy home" is just a stereotype, it could be a very happy home.

    It could be a very happy home, but dad might say "if you get pregnant you will be thrown out". He might be saying it just to scare the girl, but the girl might not realise this; is her fear "reasonable" then, or should the parent be told even after that threat?

    Whilst they are leaving under their roof, I believe a parent should have some control over the child to help teach them know what’s right from wrong and when they make mistakes, show them how to learn from them. So when is comes to a minor breaking the law, by having underage sex and gets pregnant, the parent should then have the right to know to help recover from those mistakes.

    It is not "illegal" to have underage sex with a peer, and if the girl's partner is over the age of consent it is he who has broken the law, not the girl.

    And again I question your patronising tone. If the parent is close enough to have a strong relationship then the parent will get told by the girl, if the relationship is not that strong then it is highly unlikely that the parent could "help" the child much at all.

    Your opinion also has more sinister consequences. The girl doesn't want mum and dad to know, but mum and dad get told by Dr Bloggs. Mum and dad will be even more upset that they weren't told by the girl, and all familial relations will be destroyed.

    What makes a failed parent is when they sit back and ‘hope’ they will talk to them and let the rest slide. And say, ‘That’s life’.

    Complete and total rubbish.

    What makes a bad parent is thinking that the child is their property, and doesn't have a mind of it's own. If my child had an abortion without telling me I would be disappointed that they couldn't, and I'd be disappointed that it had happened. But it is their body and their choice, at the end of the day.

    • How do we protect those girls that have been forced to go to an abortion clinic by their abuser?
    • How can we assure that they will not use this as a second contraceptive method?
    • How can you stop a girl from making a mistake in getting pregnant and then making an even bigger one by having the child terminated only to avoid seeing the disappointment of their parents’ face?

    1. How would telling parents protect the girl any more? If the girl is fearful of her abuser (like most girls are) then she wouldn't tell who the father was anyway, and she wouldn't admit to being abused. Telling parents doesn't magically make things better.

    Also, there is the issue of if it is the parent themselves who is the abuser. "Going to court" doesn't solve that problem.

    2. Leaving moral arguments aside, why shouldn't they?

    3. It's her body, her choice, her parents opinions are meaningless.

    And now three questions:

    1. How can you justify a two-tier level of confidentiality in regards to medical practise? Eitehr parents get told everything, or they get told nothing.

    2. How would you define risk? The question has been asked often enough, now give an answer.
    As explained above, "the courts would" is not a satisfactory answer. The courts need guidelines, what would those guidelines be?
    How would "the courts" decide- the decision cannot be anonymous, and the parents need a right to defend themselves.
    How would you prevent "floodgates" litigation- if any girl could say she is at risk the courts would get clogged up by the litigation.
    If the girl is deemed not at risk, what happens if she subsequently is at risk?
    What happens if a girl is deemed at risk? The parents already know because of the litigation.

    3. What happens if the parent is told, but disagrees with what the child wants to do? Whose opinion is given priority?
    If it is the girl's opinion that is given priority, why was her opinion not given priority earlier? Why is she deemed mature enough to over-ride her parenst wishes but not mature enough to decide whether they be told?
    If it is the parent's wishes, how can you justify this in terms of autonomy and liberty? Children do not belong to parents, therefore parents cannot dictate whether a child who is still maturing should be forced to carry a baby to full term.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    Sexual Abusers

    Propaganda proves nothing.

    Now answer my three questions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You might want to put up a link that doesn't include links to abortionprolife.com etc
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    Propaganda proves nothing.

    Now answer my three questions.

    Proves my point, what possibilities have been opened now that they don't need a parental consent. There is your Proof that is happening at this very moment over in America.

    Now what are the chances that could happen here now...? :chin:

    You however have been standing by the law like jugde dread and have not giving me any proof that this will work. Show me cases/statistics that by using that rule for abortions will drop the amount of terminations that are happening already -
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    And again I question your patronising tone.

    And how you do know what tone I'm using? I'm typing. Whatever way you read my posts, is how you choose to believe I'm saying it.
    Your opinion also has more sinister consequences. The girl doesn't want mum and dad to know, but mum and dad get told by Dr Bloggs. Mum and dad will be even more upset that they weren't told by the girl, and all familial relations will be destroyed.


    Since when were you giving the crystal ball?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    Actually it is very much so related to abortions - You are denyin that fact about how many cases could be revealed by stopping abusers sending their victims to clinics.
    Yeah cos then they could have their abusers BABY instead.
    Is that preferable in your eyes?
    Do you believe that abusers only abuse because of the availability of secret abortions?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    Proves my point, what possibilities have been opened now that they don't need a parental consent. There is your Proof that is happening at this very moment over in America.

    Now what are the chances that could happen here now...? :chin:

    You however have been standing by the law like jugde dread and have not giving me any proof that this will work. Show me cases/statistics that by using that rule for abortions will drop the amount of terminations that are happening already -
    That link was bullshit, its just American anti-choice, anti abortion propaganda. Those people dont give a shit about the welfare of the girls in question, theyre just using a hypothetical situation to try and stop people having abortions.
    I didnt think this argument was anything to do with how to stop the amount of abortions that happen. Thats not something that worries me in the slightest.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    Yeah cos then they could have their abusers BABY instead.
    Is that preferable in your eyes?
    Do you believe that abusers only abuse because of the availability of secret abortions?

    Ahh Jeees....
    Go back and read my posts woman.

    Still Not satisified?

    Then you know how I feel about your views.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    Thats not something that worries me in the slightest.

    Nah that's the least of your worries. That's the way to go. Turn a blind eye and you'll not have to feel guilty about the underaged girls that are taken to the clinics by their abusers.

    It may be run by people who are pro-life / But that has happened and will continue to happen all for the sake a few quid from the abortion clinics.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by J
    People will have sex underage. Fuck them if they get pregnant, they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Why should I pay for them to have an abortion? :confused:
    We should tell their parents and hope to God they get screwed for it by their parents then prosecuted.
    J that is completely and totally OTT, why are you so hung up about sex? What on earth is there about sex that makes you feel it is so morally wrong that they deserve to get `screwed by their parents and then prosecuted`.
    What would you do if it was your child that had underage sex - would you disown them?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    Nah that's the least of your worries. That's the way to go. Turn a blind eye and you'll not have to feel guilty about the underaged girls that are taken to the clinics by their abusers.

    It may be run by people who are pro-life / But that has happened and will continue to happen all for the sake a few quid from the abortion clinics.
    What you keep repeating is just a theoretical scenario conjured up by the anti-choice league USA. There is no evidence that its a major problem, and certainly not reason for your argument to force young people to tell their parents whether they feel that is the right decision or not.
    Is it the fact that youre anti abortion (maybe caused by overactive guilt feelings towards your own abortion?)
    I feel sorry if your proposed scenario does happen, and im sure it has happened in the past, but there are already laws against child abuse and paedophilia, of course there are going to be scenarios where if there was a law about one thing, it would prevent another, but that doesnt mean we SHOULD make laws about everything that might lead to a possible risk.
    Do you see what im saying?
    In your theoretical situation, are you saying that if the parents knew about the abortion, they would prevent the abuse? How? The girl isnt likely to say who her abuser is, and they dont do DNA tests on aborted foetuses. Shes more than likely to say it was one of her peers that got her pregnant if there was already that level of secrecy between her and her parents. All that would happen is the abortion would be less likely to happen, more teenage runaways, self induced abortions, baby abandonment etc. All the things that were overwhelmingly common in the days before legal abortion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    There is no evidence that its a major problem...


    But may I add, that there is also no evidence this will actually help either. I don't have the law by my side so I'm simple voicing my opinion. Just like you are.

    And I am NOT anti-abortion.
    I have made my feelings perfectly clear on that one. I have also explained in many posts that if I had a daughter in that position and wishes to have an abortion, I would wanna be there to support her. Not to change her mind.

    ...child abuse and paedophilia, of course there are going to be scenarios where if there was a law about one thing, it would prevent another, but that doesnt mean we SHOULD make laws about everything that might lead to a possible risk.


    That's is exactly why I'm against it - cause they are simply contradicting themselves. They haven't covered they're tracks.
    Do you see what im saying?


    Huni, you are probably the only person, next to Man OF Kent were I do see your point. And to an extent, I can agree with you. But unfortunately I feel if you haven't covered thought about all the girls in all situations they could be in.
    In your theoretical situation, are you saying that if the parents knew about the abortion, they would prevent the abuse? How?

    Have this older man that has been leading the minor on for a sexual relationship (Sometimes possible threat) and have him prosecuted. Why let the men get away with it? Cause it's rare to happen? So that's ok.

    You can assume a parent will do this - I would also think differently. When the truth is we don't know all the situations a child can be put through.

    I just know, that if I was a parent to a child who wished for an abortion, like most others I would want to be there for her. And like any other situation when a minor breaks the law. The parent has to take responisilbity that it will not happen again like that.

    And if the child feels that she could be in any other kinda threat by her parents; she should be removed from their care in the first place, to a legal guardian that can see she gets the best care and guidance.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Cruel.

    As the abusers issue is something which obviously is important to you, can you quantify how many people this affects every year?

    Bearing in mind that you want to change an existing legal precendence, you need to have a damn good reason for doing so.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent
    Cruel.

    As the abusers issue is something which obviously is important to you, can you quantify how many people this affects every year?

    Well I'd like to think it was important to everyone that no one has to go through that.

    I cannot find figures on how many people are being effected by this - Just like you can't with girls that are being kicked out of their homes when they tell their parents that they are pregnant, etc.

    (And for Kermits attention: You don't need to add, 'Things Happen' - 'That's Life')
    Bearing in mind that you want to change an existing legal precendence, you need to have a damn good reason for doing so.

    I have given me reasons; unfortunately they are not good enough for some of you.

    Bear in mind, it's easy/ convenient enough to agree with a law that has already been set.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
    I can't believe that I've come back to this thread and you are still arguing a load of nonsense. I pity your daughters - they'll have a control freak for a parent.

    Yet you still came back... :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Cruel2BKind
    Well I'd like to think it was important to everyone that no one has to go through that.

    I cannot find figures on how many people are being effected by this - Just like you can't with girls that are being kicked out of their homes when they tell their parents that they are pregnant, etc.

    Sorry, but I wasn't saying it was important. I was asking for a risk assessment comparing the risk of abusers using confidentiality to hide their actions against the risk of children being made homeless because confidentiality was breached.

    What you have to consider is how this law protects people.

    By using confidentiality we protect those who would be thrown out, but (as you say) this may mean that we lose protection against abusers.

    By breaching confidentiality we remove the protection for those children whose parents would evict them. Problem is that it doesn't actually solve your other problem either. The abuser can claim to be the parent/guardian and give permission for the procedure to go ahead. So I don't see it as a solution, sorry.

    Again, it appears that this confirms the legal measures already in place.
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