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Islam Dress ban

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
    Islamaphobia at its worst.

    wheres the ban on Seikh turbans:confused:

    Untrue, we're very accommodating to all religions in this country,
    this girl is just trying to be awkward
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by dantheman
    Untrue, we're very accommodating to all religions in this country,
    Bit of a generalisation really, most are good proabbly but not all so....

    yes she may be being awkward but so are those who stick to rules unbendingly for no clear reason........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    Bit of a generalisation really, most are good proabbly but not all so....

    yes she may be being awkward but so are those who stick to rules unbendingly for no clear reason........


    But if they change the rules for her, won't other children in the school see it an unfair, and maybe refuse to wear uniforms, because why should they, if she doesn't have to?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I do like the idea of having a school uniform, it has many benefits and more than anything its just easier for parents.

    However, this should also include the rights of the children to wear the head dresses if they need too, be they Jewish/Muslim/whatever.

    But this does need to be tied to common sense, obviously if a kid is coming into exams in a full on yasmack (sp?) the examiner wouldnt know who it was.

    But then putting common sense in law is a total bitch.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you're not sure...you don't really have an opinion?

    What do you think are the pros and cons of them wearing their dress?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good post Luke.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Freedom and expression of religion is a human right and so is an education (imo). this girl was not forced to wear the dress she chose to having begun to explore her religion more deeply after being orphaned.

    I think its disgusting that she should be denied an education, even the school thought she would do well and she hoped to become a doctor.

    The teachers should be ashamed, I am.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    School uniforms are a fact of life in British schools. if you CHOOSE to goto a school with a strict protocol then you should adhere to it. None of the other "high proportion" of Muslim students felt the need to be different, why this girl?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    I think that it's petty to deny a girl education cause of her clothes. It isn't as if she's going naked. She's covering up!

    It was a health and safety rish, as the dress was so long.

    I think it does matter, it does not encourage children to feel equal, if this is allowed surely other religions can wear what they like, so pagans can wear what they like?

    I think it is unfair on other children, also an islamic teacher stated that it is not an islamic 'rule' to wear these clothes. Therefore this girl is kicking up about nothing, its her preference.

    What suprises me is that my mate went to India and was in trouble for wearing a low cut top as it is against their religion, here we pay legal fees to support these people who are clearly unwilling to fit with our way of life. "When in Rome do as the Romans"

    Schools uniforms are there to make everyone equal, and to cause less division, i had a friend who could not afford to buy clothes at home, with the school uniform policy the school could provide the uniform, this caused less socioeconomic problems for my mate as she looked like evryone else (uniform) she looked smart and was representing her school, mufti days would cause so much trouble as she had little to wear, and felt self conscious. I felt like this at sixth form when i struggled to afford brand names, finding something smart and suitable everyday was almost impossible!

    FACT children are cruel, children are egocentric
    FACT it is not always the fault of the parents/guardians, a lot of this fashion and 'bullying' is often made worse by teen mags, it does not help confidence.

    I agree children should be brought up to respect others, to respect economic status.

    The fact of the matter is that the reason by the school has been given due to the length of the dress the child is a health and safety risk. If someone should trip over ot she should trip over the bottom then the school could be sued. In todays paper this was stated the LEA are supporting the school, nd i cannot say fairer than that, she was aware of teh rules as are the other 80% of muslims in the school who insist it is not essential and is not a required item by a muslim!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by *DEVIL*
    It was a health and safety rish, as the dress was so long.

    here we pay legal fees to support these people who are clearly unwilling to fit with our way of life. "When in Rome do as the Romans"


    Oh dear, oh dear, Oh dear

    Long dresses a health and safety risk, sounds ridiculous to me.....

    'these people' 'our way of life' ?:no:

    I personally don't think such tighlty enforced school uniform rules are a very good idea, its just pettiness. Guess they are not part of my 'way of life'. Weird huh, I must be a Muslim! :eek:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree with uniform policies. It means all the children are dressed the same and parents aren't under any pressure to buy expensive trainers or expensive designer jeans.

    Jacq - when we say people pick on others for not wearing fashionable clothes we don't mean labels like Dior or Chanel. A kid wearing an old hand-me-down sweater is bound to attract some attention in a modern secondary school - it is how naughty little kids are.

    This girl was offered an option that would enable her to adhere to her strict religious views, so why didn't she choose that? Also, she knew there was a uniform policy when she went to the school. Nobody joins an organisation without agreeing to the rules. She could have gone elsewhere to be taught - somewhere without a uniform.

    Another argument for uniforms is to stop the "labelling" kind of behaviour.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BlackArab

    The teachers should be ashamed, I am.

    The teachers only follow the rules, they dont make them. It would be the Governors/Headteacher etc who make the rules.

    People cannot please themselves when it comes to rules, break the rule and face the consequences.......End of in my opinion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Numro uno:
    If we pride ourselves by being an open and democratic society, then we must also choose to show that. That means letting people of another religion and culture to live by their traditions and customs, even if we wouldn't allow to do the same in their country. Remember, that's why the west is so great.

    Dos:
    There is a serious problem with your kids, if they can't not wear uniform without creating waves of bullying.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    That means letting people of another religion and culture to live by their traditions and customs,

    right, slightly different but here goes anyhow.

    As ive said before my Daughter goes to cathlic school, me and her Father are both C of E.
    I sent her to that school because of the good education they get there. Now if I am not gonna allow her to go to church like all the rest of the school then im going to be in deep shit. The rule is they must pray on a morning and go to church (however many times a week). Thats the rule of that school and i must adhere to the rule and allow my Daughter to go to church etc.........NO exceptions at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Special school.
    As far as I understood the girl goes to an ordinary school.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    That means letting people of another religion and culture to live by their traditions and customs
    Which is what they were doing by having a special uniform set aside for Muslim children in the first place. Her religious needs were being met.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why does what she wears bother people so much? Let her get on with it I say. Who gives a shit, really? :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because she CHOSE to goto that school. She saw the uniform policy and she CHOSE to break it.
    None of the other Muslim students had any problems with the uniform, WHY did she have to be different? If she prides in wearing the all-in-one combo then there are plenty of muslim schools and other state schools that don't have a problem with it.
    It's like me seeing a 2 roads. One with a 40 limit, one with a 20 limit, choosing to go down the road that says 20 and CHOOSING to do 40 anyway.

    If the girl didn't have any other school she could goto then I'd agree with her, but as it stands she decided to make herself stand out.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its hardly the crime of the century is it?

    I don't give a flying fuck either way to be honest.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So a school uniform leaves her body and legs open to the world do they? Well then change the uniform, but as far as i know a long sleeved shirt and trousers serve the purpose just as well!
    Simon Birks, for the school and council, said there was a place available for Ms Begum at Denbigh. She had not been excluded but had chosen not to attend.
    [source: The Times]

    Another thing she is an orphan living with a brother of 19, and a sister of 17, have the social services been contacted? Surely a 15 year old should be in care and TOLD to go to school, any other parent keeping a child out of school would be in serious trouble?

    As reported in the Daily Mail yesterday 27/05/2004 the dress was seen as a health and safety risk, due to the length. The L.E.A were supporting the school on the matter, they cannot allow clothes touching the floor. (Which is why in my school bootleg trousers were banned, as the dragged on the floor, tripping people up, causing sprained ankles.

    However that is irrelevant the point is she was aware of the schools dress code, and knew of another local school who allowed it, despite her religious feelings and thoughts increasing. If she had increased in religious knowledge she would understand that the jilbab is not a nessesary part of her religion, but the covering of all but face and hands is, which the school uniform does well!

    We have already established that the children in Britain are stupid and silly and that they have serious problems, but they all have feelings they all can see that one this is fair and is not fair, allow one person to break the rules you have a chance of rebellion from all of them, will the 20% of non-muslim children be pleased that they wear a uniform they may hate themselves but the rest waer what they like?

    That is not fair, and i think the school was right in telling the girl to change, its not fair and is wrong. This girl is causing an argument knowing she can win because our government is unfair. She has excluded herself by wanting to wear the dress.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why do you care so much?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Why do you care so much?
    Well for a starters I don't care that much but she is wasting tax payers money by dragging it through the courts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee
    Well for a starters I don't care that much but she is wasting tax payers money by dragging it through the courts.

    :yes: not to mention the name of the school. The is little point in caring really as its just a sign of the times!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    Why do you care so much?

    Why do you care so much about things close to your heart?
    I don't personally care either way, she can wear whatever the hell she wants. I'm pointing out that it's all well and good blasting the school for this, when it's her own fault for ignoring the rules.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BeckyBoo

    People cannot please themselves when it comes to rules, break the rule and face the consequences.......End of in my opinion.

    What can be questioned is whether the rule is right though.

    Simply blindly folllowing rules without question is not good.

    would you make the same statement about US army discipline in Abu Ghraib if it is found they were ordered to torture the inmates by superiors.....?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    Simply blindly folllowing rules without question is not good.

    All this is to miss the point.

    Muslim dress is allowed as part of that school's uniform, but the jilbab is not. As the school (quite rightly) points out, they do not want school to become a parade ground for who is the "best" Muslim- if the school lets this girl wear the extreme clothing, then it sets a precedent that those girls who don't wear the extreme clothing will be labelled ass "bad" Muslims by those who do wear the jilbab.

    This girl is causing a stink because she can. The school are right; if all Muslim clothing was banned, then they would not be right. This girl has the opportunity to cover herself up as per her religion, not being allowed to wear something like the jilbab does not damage her "human rights". If she feels that strongly about it there are plenty of Muslim religious schools that she could attend.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If education is such a human right as you all say, why on earth, could i be forced to pack in uni due to lack of money and amount of tuition fees?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm noticing some parallels between this thread and the one on freedom of association started by the sole liber. There is a common theme: when is it acceptable for someone to place conditions on access to their goods or services?

    In the case of the school, the staff and governors have decided that a condition of receiving their service (education) shall be conformity with a dress code. Their dress code has been designed with certain religious provisions in mind, but they are unwilling to permit futher modification of the dress code on the grounds of personal belief.

    In the thread on freedom of association started by the sole liber, the example is of a shopkeeper who restricts access to his shop on the basis of skin colour.

    At one time or another in each thread, posters have remarked that there is no obligation for the "consumer" to use the particular school or shop in question; someone can always choose to go to a school more suited to their religious beliefs. In the "freedom of association" thread, Toadborg opined that if the school or shop is the only one (in the area) then the situation is different?

    Is it? Does a monopolist really have different moral obligations to one provider among many? If so, at what point do the rights of the "oppressed consumer" begin to outweigh the right of the school / shop to decide with whom it will conduct business?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg

    Simply blindly folllowing rules without question is not good.

    what Kermit said (only he put it much better than I could) ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee
    Which is what they were doing by having a special uniform set aside for Muslim children in the first place. Her religious needs were being met.

    How can you, me or anybody say that her religious needs are being met. She clearly doesn't think so. Yes she was happy until after deeper reading into Islam, she decided that the uniform wasn't enough.

    Islam like Judaism or Christianity has varying schools of thought and there is no strict norms.
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