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Islam Dress ban

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee
    Well for a starters I don't care that much but she is wasting tax payers money by dragging it through the courts.

    It doesn't have to be dragged through the courts though does it. As mentioned if another local school allows the outfit then her school have little reason to continue their ban.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    All this is to miss the point.

    Muslim dress is allowed as part of that school's uniform, but the jilbab is not. As the school (quite rightly) points out, they do not want school to become a parade ground for who is the "best" Muslim- if the school lets this girl wear the extreme clothing, then it sets a precedent that those girls who don't wear the extreme clothing will be labelled ass "bad" Muslims by those who do wear the jilbab.

    This girl is causing a stink because she can. The school are right; if all Muslim clothing was banned, then they would not be right. This girl has the opportunity to cover herself up as per her religion, not being allowed to wear something like the jilbab does not damage her "human rights". If she feels that strongly about it there are plenty of Muslim religious schools that she could attend.

    And what evidence does the school have of Muslims labelling each other good or bad in issues like this? It sounds like a condescending assumption to me to justify ulterior motives.

    Do schools have a problem with Orthodox Jewish children bragging over their ringlets or strict Catholics taunting other Catholics over their non-attendance at least weeks Confession?

    I wonder if the school has actually made the effort to ask the opinion of the local Imam or any Muslim expert on Islamic beliefs?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BlackArab


    I wonder if the school has actually made the effort to ask the opinion of the local Imam or any Muslim expert on Islamic beliefs?

    Actually yes they did, as mentioned in my earlier posts, it was said that, the dress (bibjab) was not a required garnment of religion, it was perfectly acceptable to wear the headdress.

    But i will agree that as the other muslims do not have a problem it is very 'show-off' to those who cannot wear it.

    And thankyou for your examples but yes you do see the "i am better than you argument" If a CofE child calls themselve CofE but never attends church then the one who ttends church will say i am more religious than you.

    It does happen, kids are kids, it will happen and this girl is provoking it!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by *DEVIL*
    Actually yes they did, as mentioned in my earlier posts, it was said that, the dress (bibjab) was not a required garnment of religion, it was perfectly acceptable to wear the headdress.

    But i will agree that as the other muslims do not have a problem it is very 'show-off' to those who cannot wear it.

    And thankyou for your examples but yes you do see the "i am better than you argument" If a CofE child calls themselve CofE but never attends church then the one who ttends church will say i am more religious than you.

    It does happen, kids are kids, it will happen and this girl is provoking it!

    Looked at your previous posts and all I saw was a reference to what the other muslim kids had said, if I missed something please c&p as I am referring to experts or Imams.

    The 'i am better than you' argument - so do you think that schools where this occurs should take steps to end this as they are trying to do in this case?

    I have seen Muslim students wearing the dress in Bristol at school, college and University level all my life and have never heard of any problem being caused between pupils.

    Can anybody show me an example where a pupils similair devotion to their religious beliefs has proved detrimental to other pupils?

    Kids will always come out with the 'I am better than you' argument even if the uniform is followed, they did when I was at school.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You can have a secular multi faith school where everyone abides by the rules or you have individual faith schools that only certain faiths attend. How can you have a school in the middle?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Rocksteady
    You can have a secular multi faith school where everyone abides by the rules or you have individual faith schools that only certain faiths attend. How can you have a school in the middle?

    Simple you make allowances for religious and cultural beliefs. At my school, Jehovahs Witnesses were given permission to not attend assemblies on production of a note from their parents.

    The same applied to parents for whatever reason who didn't wish their child to take part in sex education lessons.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In todays society do you not think that having a multi faith non secular school in some parts of the country is very unpractical?


    If you have Muslims Jews Hindus Jehovahs Witnesses Christians of All denominations how can you have an assembly at all?

    Also what about the law that states that a daily act of Christian worship is compulsory for pupils in state schools?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Rocksteady
    In todays society do you not think that having a multi faith non secular school in some parts of the country is very unpractical?


    If you have Muslims Jews Hindus Jehovahs Witnesses Christians of All denominations how can you have an assembly at all?

    Also what about the law that states that a daily act of Christian worship is compulsory for pupils in state schools?

    Not at all unpractical I attended one as do many other people and there were no problems. As for assemblies, ours were predominently Christian based but on other religions holy days the teachers took the opportunity to use the assmbly to tell us what they were about.

    Children are born without prejudice and naturally curious, schools can be a great place to learn tolerance. Would you like to have the situation we have in Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland where the children are only educated with 'their own kind'? Great breeding grounds for the hatred and secterianism that continue to blight those areas.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Will that not happen anyway with no law to force people to mix in schools and the multi faith society we live in segregated into enclaves of religions?

    Is a school not an ideal place for those who wish to express and practise their culture and religion which the government wants to promote?

    Lastly in the Muslim religion I know it is against their law for a girls on many occasions to mix with boys, how can a multi faith school uphold such rules?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Rocksteady
    Will that not happen anyway with no law to force people to mix in schools and the multi faith society we live in segregated into enclaves of religions?

    Is a school not an ideal place for those who wish to express and practise their culture and religion which the government wants to promote?

    Lastly in the Muslim religion I know it is against their law for a girls on many occasions to mix with boys, how can a multi faith school uphold such rules?

    It will and does happen but on a far lesser scale than in the NI or Scotland wouldn't you agree? Segregated enclaves? do you mean the Ulster problem? In England there are many historical reasons for this occuring and its not all through choice, far from it.

    Neither I or you are experts on the Muslim faith, I mainly speak from my own experiences and I can tell you in practice most Muslims attend and always have attended mixed sex schools.

    I would agree a school is an ideal place, to learn about other cultures and religions, it certainly worked for me. The main cause of racism is ignorance and schools are there to promote learning.

    TTFN, essays to write.

    BA
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If it is not choice is it force? Ghettos are only a result of force are they not?

    In England there is an areas of the cities dominated by different religions, odviously not 100% each religion but nonetheless those areas are segregated because of religion in the first place. True? Well surely then if people want to live in seperate areas they have a right to have their own schools also?

    School may be a good place to learn about other people but do you deny people the right to attend religious schools? If so should the mixed schools abide by the law enforcing a daily act of Christian worship or should no children be permitted to worship? Although you perhaps not have a daily act of Christian worship for the whole school do you still allow those who wish to attend prayer meetings and those from muslim backgrounds worship seperately also? Should the school allow headscarfs and change the uniform rules? and allow those from the Jedi faith to weild lightsabres? :lol:

    In Muslim sharia however it does not advocate the mixing of sexes on many occasions. Other religions have different laws so how do you make a school rule book?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    according to the daily hatemail, the school which is 80% muslim had consulted with leaders in the local muslim community, who had stated that the shalwar kameez was perfectly acceptable for school dress. this girl is quite blatantly taking the piss out of the school, who have been more than reasonable. naturally, she is getting legal aid and the services of a money grabbing lawyer to protect her ''human rights''. The school has catered for her religion, she is trying to exert her own personal choice. can you imagine an english girl suing a school in a muslim country because they didnt like the idea of her turning up in a bikini? i dont think so. yet another example of how our liberal policies have been taken advantage of by militants backed by greedy lawyers. i hope to god the idiot in the wig who judges this despicable waste of taxpayers money treats it with the contempt it deserves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jsut to clarify the school is perfectly entitled to have a dress code, and it has a dress code that takes into account of religion



    its just this girl and her family have decided to take it upon themselves to force the school to wear clothes which are actually not a part of the religion, just her and families culture


    the school has been reasosnable as it has allowed clothing which ALL the childrens religions have been satisfied
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by MacKenZie

    Is it? Does a monopolist really have different moral obligations to one provider among many? If so, at what point do the rights of the "oppressed consumer" begin to outweigh the right of the school / shop to decide with whom it will conduct business?

    Well instead of putting the debate in terms of individual ownership we could put in terms of a the use of scarce resources.

    Some institution has provided the finance for the business, this finance is scarce and comes from all society.

    Thus to pretend this shopkeeper is in some way isolated from society is exactly that, a pretence.

    He has been granted access to societies resources and society has some say in how he best uses them.....

    becky, you ignored my point about blind-rule following, do you accept that Abu Ghraib prison wardens should follow rules by obeying orders to torture prisoners?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Like I said before, the rest of the Muslim kids are quite capable of wearing clothes that fit the dress code.
    WHY did the girl decide to stay and SUE the school when she decided to wear something else?
    If she believed her religious needsweren't being met she should have buggered off and saved the school time and money.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg


    becky, you ignored my point about blind-rule following, do you accept that Abu Ghraib prison wardens should follow rules by obeying orders to torture prisoners?


    People blindly follow the rules, it's in our nature. yes, many of us question rules in hindsight, but how many times have you deliberately broken an order made by a uniformed official. If a policeman in the street told you to pick up some litter, you'd do it. I had a kid kicking a bottle at people the other week, he didn't drop it, was never his. But he still picked it up when I told him to. Why do people do this?
    I suggest you read up on either Zimbardo's prison experiment, or Milgrams experiment on authority figures.
    When those guards at Abu-Ghraib tortured those prisoners, and likewise when the Nazi guards shot all the Jews, gays etc when acting on orders, they are doing so out of a percieved fear of what might happen if they don't.
    A lot of people are resigned to the fact as well in situations like this that if they don't do it, someone else will and will recieved the credit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Rocksteady
    If it is not choice is it force? Ghettos are only a result of force are they not?

    In England there is an areas of the cities dominated by different religions, odviously not 100% each religion but nonetheless those areas are segregated because of religion in the first place. True? Well surely then if people want to live in seperate areas they have a right to have their own schools also?

    School may be a good place to learn about other people but do you deny people the right to attend religious schools? If so should the mixed schools abide by the law enforcing a daily act of Christian worship or should no children be permitted to worship? Although you perhaps not have a daily act of Christian worship for the whole school do you still allow those who wish to attend prayer meetings and those from muslim backgrounds worship seperately also? Should the school allow headscarfs and change the uniform rules? and allow those from the Jedi faith to weild lightsabres? :lol:

    In Muslim sharia however it does not advocate the mixing of sexes on many occasions. Other religions have different laws so how do you make a school rule book?

    'Ghettoes' in the historical sense have been created by force and/or racism eg The Warsaw Ghetto for Jews during WW2, Black ghettoes in the U.S

    In modern Britain yes there are areas with high numbers with high numbers or concentrations of a particular race or religion, as I mentioned, Northern Ireland in one extreme or Golders Green and Southall. However I would only say NI could be considered truly segregated in the true sense.

    And yes I would say people have the right to live where they wish and I do believe educational choice has been enshrined in law by both the current and previous governments. I have no problems with religious schools existing whatsoever as long as this is not the only option. You wouldn't want us to go down the sectarian route in England and Wales would you?

    With regards to the law, I believe in a seperation between church and state (even as a Christian), religion is a personal decision and how many teachers are experienced or religious enough to conduct a service these days. If a parent wishes to have their child taught a religion do you not think they would be better taking that child to the appropriate place of worship as opposed to a teacher going through the motions for the sake of the law?

    If a school has the facilities and staff for people to worship, I for one would not stop anybody from choosing to do so but remember you cannot force someone onto God and you cannot force them away from it either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    FAO MT, Placebo

    and any others with an interest in what the Koran and religious teachers have to say on the subject.

    http://www.muhajabah.com/jilbab.htm

    I will say again, none of us are experts, so how can we tell someone what is written in their holy book is wrong or right surely that is up to the individual?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Whowhere
    People blindly follow the rules, it's in our nature. yes, many of us question rules in hindsight, but how many times have you deliberately broken an order made by a uniformed official. If a policeman in the street told you to pick up some litter, you'd do it. I had a kid kicking a bottle at people the other week, he didn't drop it, was never his. But he still picked it up when I told him to. Why do people do this?
    I suggest you read up on either Zimbardo's prison experiment, or Milgrams experiment on authority figures.
    When those guards at Abu-Ghraib tortured those prisoners, and likewise when the Nazi guards shot all the Jews, gays etc when acting on orders, they are doing so out of a percieved fear of what might happen if they don't.
    A lot of people are resigned to the fact as well in situations like this that if they don't do it, someone else will and will recieved the credit.

    The Stanford Prison Experiment, a very interesting study well worth checking out. :yes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Rocksteady
    In Muslim sharia however it does not advocate the mixing of sexes on many occasions. Other religions have different laws so how do you make a school rule book?

    Perhaps by disrespecting them all equally?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That is not the case. While Muslim girls are not allowed to mix with any males whom they are not married to on an individual basis without the presence of another girl, men are allowed to be alone with other women who are not Muslim on an individual basis.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Really? I must tell my female Muslim colleague that. :eek: :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I best tell her that some wanker on a bulletin board knows more about her culture than she does, eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes it is in their Sharia law, so much for all your interaction & cultural understanding then Blagsta?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Rocksteady
    Yes it is in their Sharia law, so much for all your interaction & cultural understanding then Blagsta?

    Not all Muslims follow Sharia law y'know.
    There are different strands of Islam, same as there are with Christianity.
    But you'd know that, being so well informed about everything, yeah?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by lukesh
    no, you know more than me don't you.

    I should think that most people know more than you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    True most Christians do not follow the 10 commandments nor Christian teachings... doenst make you much of a Christian though does it?

    http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/S/shariahtv/points3.html
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As you probably know, if you weren't shit stirring, there are lots of differing interprations of every religion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I based what I said on that source and the programme and I may point out there was no disagreement between those on the programme offering differing interpretations on that issue unlike other issues and other than that I was mearly asking questions :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Following on from what Blagsta and Rocksteady were discussing (but fairly off topic from the original post)... I was talking to a muslim I live with about alcohol recently. He does not drink himself but said that some muslims do. He said that he has been taught that:

    1. He shouldn't get drunk.
    2. He should not allow himself to get tempted.

    So to some muslims it is acceptable to drink (in moderation) and to others it isn't, depending on how closely you relate these two ideas.
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