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Rubbish. You can love living in this country and love the people, while hating the actions of the government, the history of British imperialism and the continuing imperialistic actions of the British government and armed forces. This is what burning the flag could mean. Its not a protest against me personally at all.
Or do you think we should salute the flag everyday like in America? Do you think it should be a crime to desecrate it?
I don't think we should salute it, but I do think it should be a crime to desecrate it. It should be a crime to desecrate any flag.
On a random tangent, if it wasn't seen as an insulting gesture England football fans wouldn't get into so much trouble. The two Leeds United fans who were stabbed to death had been urinating on and burning the Turkish flag (allegedly)- it is obviously an insulting gesture. And it is the same in this country for a lot of people, because it goes beyond insulting the government- it insults the entire country.
I guess it depends if you actually respect the place you live.
The people burning the flags aren't making political statements, they are showing their contempt for a country that has welcomed them and allowed them to stay.
People who burn the flag show they have no respect for us or for anyone else, and show at every opportunity how much they despise us.
If you take personal offence at someone burning the flag, you need to get a thicker skin.
I didn't say I was prejudiced :rolleyes: Or that I was judging, I just stated what I saw. I don't give a shit what race people are, but to me some of these people are giving themselves a bad name. Did I write that all immigrants are rude? No... and at the same time I don't kiss arse to anybody foreign either, all are the same in heirarchy but different in culture. But the ones in my area do cause trouble, or at least a certain groups do. I think I'm the only person who works at my place who doesn't mind them... or maybe another guy doesn't.
I usually agree with ya Blagsta man, but here... well you work with people of these ethnic groups, don't you? So maybe you know first hand... but some people don't and that's where the trouble starts. I've heard several people say about how they hate Muslims for being 'wife beaters', or 'suicide bombers' and the majority of Muslims aren't. But it only takes a few bad apples to re-inforce people's prejudice and xenophobia to piss them off further and find another reason to dislike the ethnic group. As Kermit says, everybody has a prejudice of some sort.
It doesn't offend you, but it would offend others. Not everybody thinks the same as you.
I'd say that the burning of a flag is simply trying to wind people up. But then if we went in a kicked the shit outta the flag-burners for giving us the finger, or for what could be perceived as so then we'd be 'racist'.
Personally I can't give two hoots about the flag, about our culture, but for a sound society there needs to be respect coming in from all parties.
I couldn't give a shit about the British flag tbh. And I know a lot of people who feel the same.
So what if someone burns a flag?? In a free society shouldn't they be able to express their opinion??!
But some people do care...
you should get out a bit more
and some people don't. Thats democracy for ya...
True. I can't see why people keeping banging on about immigrants here not doing enough to integrate. My experiences both here and abroad show that some will, some won't, those that don't lose out (IMO).
Sure but its always going to be a provocative gesture which could produce negative results for example what Kermit said about the Leeds fans in Istanbul. The flag-burning incident outside the Finsbury Pk mosque resulted in a NF demo on Friday and will no doubt prove to be a useful recruiting tool for the them and other far-right groups.
If it wasn't a powerful and provocative image to burn the flag of a country, protestors wouldn't do it. Therefore they INTEND to offend, in order to put their point across.
I am offended by it, because the flag doesn't represent the Government, it represents the country. And even if one doesn't agree, my viewpoint is shared by a LOT of people, and I think our viewpoint deserves just as much respect as their right to protest.
With democratic rights come democratic responsibilities. I disagree with a lot of Government policy, and have no problem with people burning Blair in effigy- the protest is targeted correctly. But people exercising the right of protest have the responsibility to respect the views and wishes of those who disagree, rather than send them up in smoke- literally. Those I suppose it depends on whose views you respect more as to whether you think burning a flag is acceptable behaviour or not; just because YOU don't think my views are as deserving of respect as yours doesn't mean that my views are not deserving of respect.
True.
But I'm making the point that there are lots of people who don't give a shit about the flag and don't take it personally.
It doesn't represent me.
Firstly, a quote from above story:
"British society itself has changed on women, gays, race and sex and no group can withdraw from that new tolerance."
British social policy has changed, but society has always been a few hundred yards behind that! Where I used to live all of the above were and still are ferociously intolerated (sp?). Men still treat women like shit, physically and emotionally, homosexual friends of mine have been beaten, spat on and generally persecuted, the immigrant population that grew during the 90's is dispised and I was witness to verbal attacks as such on a daily basis, physical attacks were listed almost weekly in the local paper.
I have seen,heard and read that these things are a continuing problem, a problem caused by white males, aged from as young as 10/11 hurling abuse in the streets up to middle aged men starting fights in pool clubs.
In an ideal world I dont think immigration would exist, we seem to have enough trouble just getting on with our compatriates let alone anyone else!
*yawn*
It's always the fault of white males, isn't it? There's no one homogenous Islamic culture, Jewish culture, Irish culture- but all white men are fag-beating wife abusers. I'm surprised you didn't mention that most paedophiles are white men.
It is actually interesting to see in somewhere like Bradford, with two hundred years of immigration, just how it is the group of immigrants that arrived before the current crop who are the most bigoted. The English dislike the Irish, the Irish dislike the Poles and Ukrainians, and the Poles and Ukrainians seem to positively detest the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. So it goes.
*yawn* x 10 000 000
This is what happens when the primary schools are on holiday...
What you start chatting rubbish?
Where has anyone said "It's always the fault of white males"? in fact most people on here seem to blame immigrants for everything.
I agree with ya there, although it's usually the 'fault' of white working class males. If you look at a lot of sociologists they blame white working class males for crime and deviance. I personally think that white people are as much demonised as immigrants.
Just because somebody is an immigrant doesn't make them an angel... the same with any race, class or religion. Just because you don't kiss the feet of people from different ethnic backgrounds doesn't mean you're racist, or that you blame immigrants for everything.
Errrr...what?
Has anyone on here said immigrants are angels? Or that people who "don't kiss the feet of people from different ethnic backgrounds" (whatever the fuck that means
In fact, a quick search would reveal a lot of opinion on here blaming foreigners for most of this countries problems.
I'll do a search if you like.
And I refer you to the post by static:
You really should read what is written, before deciding that everyone hates immigrants when, given the exception of wee wuman, they don't.
As for the debating technique, maybe one day it might ascend from the gutter, but I'm not hopeful.
I read that as redressing the balance actually. Seeing as the majority population of this country is white, the majority of people causing trouble are also white. But going by a lot of what is written here, most people seem to blame immigration. I'll dig up some posts if you like.
And where have I said that "everyone hates immigrants"?
You really should read what is written.
Pot meet kettle.
It may mean fuck all to alot of people, but is that the point? Why should I get a thicker skin because someone doesn't respect my feelings? Or should I be allowed to use any racist terms, without fear of being accused of "inciting hatred"? Surely the target of my abuse should "just get a thicker skin"? I wouldn't have thought so.
Or is a deliberate attempt to insult me justified in any way?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to the point at the start of the thread. I think that Trevor Phillips has a point and that this thread just proves it.
Much of what has been said here is about what divides us, what is different about each of the cultures which makes us this fair land. Rather than talking about whites/blacks/asians we could just as easily apply the differences between yorks/lanc and geordies.
My understanding is that Trevor would like to see us all focus on what unites us because there is so much. In this thread I would argue that the uniting factor is that none of us believe that we should tolerate racism...