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I wouldn't mock Taiwan so much- they're better builders than British Aerospace:p
OK. But I'd call that self defence.
You gonna answer my points on other threads?
The way you are trying to justify or tone down cold blooded murder and war crimes is fucking revolting.
I wonder what your reaction would be if the police here shot dead BNP demonstrators who were throwing missiles at them (even though the police would not even have the benefit of a tank to protect them).
"Jumpy young soldiers who are trying to protect themselves." Do you know how fucking pathetic does that sound?
Change that to child-killing, cold blooded murdering ****s worse than paedophiles and you're nearer the mark. "Trying to protect themselves..." Fucking pathetic.
And this is the oasis of democracy and freedom you go on about? A place where children are regularly murdered for no reason and where the murders go unpunished by the government? Even the fucking Taliban left children alone.
If you had but the tiniest trace of humanity in you, you would at least admit that shooting children dead is a hideous crime and that its perpetrators are nothing but disgusting child murderers, instead of trying to justify and unjustifiable.
But I guess when children are dirty Arabs, inferior to the White and Jewish Man, it's not such a big deal is it?
Bull****
UK police do not have guns.
Theres nothing pathetic about it, the Palestinians blow up themselves in crowded cafes and restaurants with children. Its called tit for tat.
Not at all, they are young, inexperienced troops trying to survive in an area full of people who hate them, and would drive them all (including their children) into the sea.
Whats 'fucking pathetic' is you and your ilk. You sit there on your computer at home, in a nice safe country, becoming 'outraged' by people who are simply defending their homes and famalies from, frankly, barbarous people who blow themselves up. You wanna stop the Israeli army? Go there yourself and fight them with flowers and confetti and petitions and whatever else you use to solve problems.
The Palestinian crisis will only be solved when one side emerges victorious, the Israeli nation-state, or the Palestinian suicide networks.
the palestinian people didn't have anyone to blow up and were getting on with their very peaceful and relatively calm and sucsessful lives until the zionists turned up ...turned them over ...robbed them of their land for ...a 5,000yr old idea.
do you grasp ...if the french turn up tomorrow and by force start taking manchester off you ...england off you by force and violence ...your going to continue to sit and watch the telly.
what if the jews turn up and by force start to take england off you ...
Do you really want me to dig it up?
Oh yes they do.
But I see that you have avoided the question, so here it is again. What would you say if BNP protesters were shot dead by police for throwing missiles at them?
Correction. A few Palestinians who belong to terrorist/militant organisations blow themselves up. The rest of the Palestinians (i.e. 99.999%) don't.
And in any case, 'vibrant democracies' that care about freedom and human rights don't take revenge on children. Only brutal, barbaric regimes indulge in such practices. Tell me again how nice the Israeli state is...
Piss off.
Like I said, trying to defend the indefensable.
So being young and inexperienced (aren't we all at 19) is defence against murder charges? Must try that if I ever wind up in court... :rolleyes:
[QUOTEWhats 'fucking pathetic' is you and your ilk. You sit there on your computer at home, in a nice safe country, becoming 'outraged' by people who are simply defending their homes and famalies from, frankly, barbarous people who blow themselves up. You wanna stop the Israeli army? Go there yourself and fight them with flowers and confetti and petitions and whatever else you use to solve problems.
The Palestinian crisis will only be solved when one side emerges victorious, the Israeli nation-state, or the Palestinian suicide networks. [/QUOTE]
Israeli soldiers in Palestine aren't defending their homes and families- they don't live there. It's not even their fucking country.
Are you suggesting ALL Palestinians are barbaric? You are getting more clueless and racist by the minute.
Like I said, your attempt to justify child murders is disgusting. Full stop.
Read some history and then come back.
I know;)
Not going to argue with your over-riding points, but there is not, nor has the ever been a state of Palestine.
He suggested that the entire area was "Owned" by Paelstinians. It never has been.
Previously much of that land "Belonged" to other nations, each of which has oppressed the Palestinians - many of whom still do inside their own borders.
The Palestinians, as a people or race, were there well before the state of Israel was created out of thin air and dumped on them.
Just who gets to decide what makes a nation anyway?
But that argument is a bit spurious, Aladdin- Israel has been around for a long time, the twelve tribes and all that.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/anti_semites.htm
Besides which, the zionist movement of Herzl was itself roundly condemned by religious jews of his day as being a political attempt to hasten the restoration of Israel at the coming of the Messiah. That the religious have long since fallen into line with zionism as a political movement in no way lends credence to the mainstream arguments of the present state being the promised restoration by right. If anything the grossest acts of anti-semitism are committed daily against those whose ancestry never left the land (i.e. Palestinians) but which were driven off by terroristic violence as European militants came to take what they sought by force.
So the twelve tribes issue is irrelevant in this context.
Until then I unashamebly say:
Sod the lot of them. Israeli or Palestinian. They will look back on this period with shame. If the EU, UN or USA has to physically force a ceasefire then so be it. It's worthless and futile, a pathetic example to humanity and an embarassment to whatever god they worship.
Arabs and Jews are both Semites so don't accuse me of Anti-semitism or of being a racist. I strongly believe that this conflict can be solved around a negotiating table and the only people standing in the way of it are Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat.
A suicide bomber is just as much the murderer as the conscripted Israeili solider. They are both doing their duty to Allah and Sharon and we are not going to stop it, only they can. When they realise if they continue they will no longer have countries to govern then they will sit up and take notice of the situation THEY have dragged themselves into.
We cannot force people into changing. Any British government that enforces a pro-settlement position will be equally accused of racism and anti-semitism. In the Jew financial backed US Presidential elections they are not going to stand up and say, "let us create an independant Palestine/1 state 2 systems"
The Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones who can sort it out and until then the West (EU, USA should withdraw) ALL support to both sides but with Elections looming in the US, it seems unlikely that either Democrats or Republicans will support an embargo. The USA is the big player as only Israel will listen to them in this and we can only wait and see to what they do.
Until them, the slaughter of innocents on both sides will continue and we can do nothing about it because of the pig headed attitude of both the Israeli and Palesinian governments.
It's yet another problem created by nationalism and religious zealots and yet again the big loser is the commener. No one seems to learn from history.
There are arabs in the Knesset. Israel is a democracy.
I find it keenly interesting that Jews are being assaulted again all over Europe. Some things never change. The same vile accusations are being made against Jews as they have been for centuries.
The vile anti-semitism being displayed on this board would do any Nazi proud! Unless and until the right of Israel to exist is firmly established there can be no peace.
I also want to make perfectly clear that the term "never again" has a very deep meaning for me and many others. Israel will continue to exist and it will defend itself regardless. The chic new anti-semitism of Europes left is vile and disgusting!
We are not going to meekly march into gas chambers this time! You want us you come get us. You don't like us then come and get us! We are waiting for you to join your Palestinian friends who like to blow up children.
We will defend ourselves by all means possible and by any means necessary! We are as serious as death when we say"NEVER AGAIN"!!!
This issue is complicated and emotional but reactions that are so strongly worded are a bit out of order.
this is not anti semitism. the jews of all people in this world should know better than anyone what it's like to not have a homeland ...to not have self governance ...that what is so shocking. building walls instead of bridges does not make much sense ...especialy when those walls take peoples land and livelihood.
Because they have so little comprehension of the term "anti -semite" that they fail to understand that the actual anti-semites are the European zionists who first forced the creation of the state of israel by perpetrating the very sorts of terrorist acts (see the background of Menachim Begin and other Israeli statesmen , Sharon as well) which they comdemn palestinians or any other arabs for perpetrating.
Those making such arguments also are the very types who have willfully relinquished their civic duty to hold our own leaders accountable, preferring instead to turn a blind eye to abuse of power and lies so long as its their right wing heros in power.
They are knee-jerk reactionaries whose arguments are as shallow as their committment to the rule of law they so readily pontificate upon but chose not to apply to ourselves as well.
Murph is simply regurgitating the spin of AIPAC and the revisionist history it portrays of the long running conflict. Far easier to label anyone who criticises as "anti-semite", anti-American", etc. than demonstrate intelligent rational capacity to address our own wrongdoing (and that of those Washington so unquestioningly support).
They only come out to rant and attack when its a democrat in office and some laughable sex scandal is involved. Janet Jackson's tit falling out causes them to froth and moralise whilst our leaders continue to evade their responsibility for their much more serious actions both at home and abroad.
The priorities of the right are warped and hypocritical, but then they always have been.
I disagree.
What Murph has highlighted there is a personal perspective on what is being discussed here and the clear criticism of Israel. You cannot escape from the fact that Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet. You also cannot escape from the treatment of jews throughout history. Clearly this is going to make jews more defensive when they see criticism of their nation.
Many of the complaints about jews (and Israel) are similar in fashion to what the facists used - and we all know how that ended.
Murph has brought up the fact - and it is fact - that anti-semitic attacks in Europe are on the increase. You cannot divorce the criticism of the only jewish state and these attacks as the first gives a certain level of "justification" (not sure that is the word I am looking for, perhaps "legitimacy" would be better) to these attacks.
When Israel is criticised, it is for defending their nation in the best way which they can. By arguing against such defence we must be careful not to suggest that Israel should not have this option open to them - his 1948 comment is a very important part of that.
What we see here is a constant critcism of Israel and yet little criticism of the Terrorists - something which I have pointed out before... so we have criticism of the terrorism which Israel perpetrates, but not that of the Palestinians... I understand why he can see anti-semitism here...
The laughable sex act included perjury, a serious crime, let's not forget that...
And the left isn't?