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The majority of Israeli soldiers/Jewish settlers are middle-class, educated and motivated by a mixture of nationalism, religious fanaticism and hatred of the Arabs. And your point is?
And the Palestinians hit back at the Israelis, it is what any country under attack from these fanatics would do.
No. THE WORLD must destroy the Israeli death squads (AKA the Israeli Defence Forces), and we must give them full assistance to do so.
Fucking lovely...
Well at least now I am sure of the fact that discussing with you is a waste of time and energy and simply useless.
How you ever think youll have any credibility as a diplomat is anyone's guess. You'll be a laughing stock if you think you can pipe in with such dismissive refusal to discuss pertinent matters as "discussing with you is a waste of time...". :rolleyes:
Yes, cause currently I am a diplomat and Aladdin is the terrorists foreign minister...
I am sure that 20 years from now I'll tell myself "I should have listened to Clandestine"
I don't condone either side. Just think they should call it quits and leave each other alone! Or get UN troops along the border, or something
If you had stopped to read Mat's post you might have realised that used his own comments for my replies and changed 'Palestinians' with 'Israelis'. That should be enough for you to realise the nature of my post or whether I really believe Israeli soldiers should be exterminated (I don't). But funny how you appear to find my comments outrageous but have no thoughts on Matadore's.
Regardless of whichever side you support in this conflict, what makes you believe that murders committed by men in army uniform are any more admissible that those committed by terrorists/militiamen? They are exactly as despicable as each other, and any IDF soldier who engages in such practices deserves the same fate as suicide bombers.
By the way I'm not the only one who thinks the IDF is perpetrating war crimes and atrocities... As you will know there is a growing numbers of troops and officers who refuse to serve in the occupied areas, who have disobeyed orders to carry out revenge attacks against civilians or who simply refuse to join the army for as long as it engages in such activities. Those people are heroes and many of them have been thrown into jail for their stance. I've signed the odd petition or two to have them freed. Let me know if you would like to sign it as well and I'll post the links.
I personally believe the whole mess would be sorted out if Palestine simply ceased to exist for all the trouble they are causing.
So far the Israelis are REACTING to events. They try and offer the olive branch by withdrawing their forces, everytime they do 20 civilians get blown to hell on their way to work.
The expansionist agenda of zionism began with terrorism of its own, driving the legitimate inhabitants off the land by force long before there ever was a recognised state and it hasnt abated throughout almost 40 years of illegal military occupation of what remaining scattered areas Palestinians yet inhabit.
If anyone is "reacting" it is the Palestinians and without the support of the international community which has shown itself so ready to condemn similar hostile occupation and expansionistic aims by other countries.
I advise you brush up on the real roots of this conflict and then put yourself in the shoes of those who have not ceased to suffer since the Balfour Declaration sold them out.
Here are some links if you care to gain a comprehensive picture and put this issue into its longrunning historical context rather than the one sided and sanitised spin the media cares to offer from week to week...
The Origins of the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict
Research Guide to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict
And EXACTLY the very same words can be said of Israel.
I don't believe Israel should cease to exist. But if one had to choose between the two nations the logical choice would be for Israel to make way. At the end of the day the Palestinians were there first.
So are the Palestinians. They are reacting to having their country stolen, being given a pitiful amount of land in which to "live", and then have about 25% of that remaining land taken away by an illegal occupier who proceeds to make their "life" absolute misery, to mistreat, kill and torture them and to impose movement, water and electricity restrictions within their own land.
Like I said earlier, the only surprising thing in this conflict is that no more Palestinians are willing to become suicide bombers.
Wrong. They've never withdrawn in full (as per UN resolutions and international law), they've never removed their illegal settlements (as per UN resolutions and international law) and they've never offered to return all the land stolen in 1967 and go back to the pre-67 borders (as per UN resolutions and international law).
Do you actually expect the Palestinians to be grateful because from time to time the Israelis lift the blockades and drive their tanks away from the left overs of the land the Palestinians have left??? Do you expect them to settle for the broken left overs they've been offered, full of cancerous Jewish settlements in every corner, and with an Apartheid Wall that takes further land from them, cuts towns in two and make conditions in Palestine look like a Nazi concentration camp?
What ungrateful lot the Palestinians are! Really!
:rolleyes:
Whowhere, you're taking a very short-term view of the conflict there. As Aladdin correctly pointed out, Israel as failed retreat sufficiently. It is Palestine who were there first. It is Israel who felt the need to defend themselves against the Arabs by expanding their borders into sovereign territories, and Israel's current right-wing government isn't helping the peace process one bit.
That said, every time a peace settlement has come close, it seems to be Palenstinian bombers who wreck it - though correct me on that if I'm wrong. Palestine need a stronger leadership than they have at the moment, and Israel need a more moderate government. Maybe then we can see a bit of silence and re-drawing of borders.
Each time the Palestinians agreed to increase concessions or link otherwise obligatory matters (for Israel to comply with according to international law) to the process, successive Israeli leaders have scuppered the breakthroughs by grasping for even more concessions behind the scenes and away from the television cameras. Then of course they have capitalised on the resulting resumption of violence by claiming the Palestinians ruined the agreements. It's little more than clever PR work which all too many swallow readily without digging into what's really going on and what vested interests are at work in this process for the US & Israeli cadre.
There has not been a single case of genuine will to reach agreement by any Israeli government, too much by way of future gains would have to be relinquished by Israel for the hardliners to allow an end to the ongoing status quo, Barak showed that all too clearly as had his predecessors and those who followed him (Netanyahu being amongst the worst of the lot so far).
But this point has been covered over and over with relevant supporting information provided in many threads in the past two years. I suggest you search through the archives for the plethora of threads devoted to this debate.
And since the current intifada started:
Any justification?
Its attitudes like Whowheres that have sent levels of trust in the police through the floor.
On a human level, absolutely. They're just soldiers, and much as we'd like to believe different, soldiers are human beings, capable of fear and of reacting to it.
Israel's a citizen's army, not a professional one. These people aren't trained to nearly as high a standard as you'd see in the US - hell, it's not like the US Army is much better. It is entirely human to react to unpredictable situations so as to impose order on them. Minors are incredibly unpredictable, and given the constant fear generated by the situation - you never know who the hell's going to try to blow you up - it's not unreasonable to expect soliders to react to kids wandering around.
Of course, it is slightly unfortunate that they choose to react with bullets, but that's the side effect of giving them guns.
Of course, the soldier's fear is almost entirely a product of a failed political process for which there is no justification, on either side. Seems to be Israel's getting more than its fair share of the blame - Clandestine, are the Palestinians entirely in the right then? Is everything they do completely acceptable?
One concerns recognising the severe injustices which have plagued this people since cadres of zionist terrorists first began fomenting upheaval and instability in the former British colony in advance of the eventual political concessions which granted them the state at the expense of the people who had inhabited the land for hundreds of years in peaceful coexistence with the small jewish population still present in the land. Recognition that for its part at least provides a far more substantive and contextualised answer to the question of "why?" regarding the willingness of some Palestinians to sacrifice their lives to strike out against unrelenting aggression and repression by a superior power.
The latter however is a matter of qualification, the "should" or "ought" of the matter. I do not advocate that Palestinians "ought" to strap bombs to themselves as much as I do not advocate that Israeli Defence Forces should have any authority whatsoever to demolish what little yet remains of habitable dwellings, build concentration camp containment ghettos, perpetrate daily (and largely unreported) sniper and apache helicopter rocket attacks in populated areas, etc. Yet both do.
But do I think it the inalienable right of people to defend themselves against occupation, unjust imprisonment and a host of human rights abuses? Yes I do. Unfortunately the conditions necessary for and end to all this lie with those who hold the power in the region and who have instead chosen to adopt a neverending "victim" mentality, avoiding all accountability by deadening any significant debate with spurious cries of anti-semitism toward any who dare point out the long list of criminal acts for which their leaders have yet to account.
Perhaps when peace is viewed as more important than regional domination, and irresponsible expansionistic settlement policies, those with the power to do so will fulfil their obligations to international law and end the situation which fuels the ongoing grievance of the Palestinians. Only then will two viable states be possible and the foundations for lasting peace be established.
I still believe that the Palestinians aren't going to win anything if they carry on as they are, which i'm sure you agree on.
All they will win is a retaliatory strike similar to America's response to Afghanistan and Iraq.
Rolly, I don't think I'm gonna meet many Israelis or Palestininians on my beat....do you?
Eight Palestinians killed in latest Israeli incursion
Even the more reason for this:
And those militants opened fire first, idiots.
Evidence?
Oh no, I forgot. You just leave a thread when asked to back up your claims. :rolleyes:
He was an idiot, use your commen sense, you do not go throwing stones at tanks manned by jumpy young soldiers who are trying to protect themselves.
Condemnation? Sure, they should have shot him in the leg.
Insofar as soldiers in tanks are not the least bit under threat from rocks (unless you think the Taiwanese build Israeli tanks), they would be under no threat whatsoever if they and their tanks were not deployed illegally in terroritory not owned by Israel.
If the safety of Israeli soldiers is of such concern to you, then start advocating their full and unconditional withdrawal and an end to nearly 40 years of brutal and murderous occupation.