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But more importantly to this argument, it was the duty of any Taleban soldiers- in effect regular soldiers of Afghanistan regardless of what the mad Texan might claim- to fight off the invading army, regardless of whatever good intentions the invader might have.
Yet the Americans illegally detain Afghanistan’s soldiers for just defending their country and send them to rot in a prison 10,000 miles away from home long after the war has ended, with no trial or charges, and you don't see anything wrong with that!
If Israel were to be invaded would you be calling for the imprisonment of any Israeli civilians (or some would say terrorists) who shot at the invading troops? I don't think so...
You can’t have it both ways… either people attacking invading troops are patriots doing their duty or terrorists. Whether they are good old Americans, Iraqis or Martians does not make a difference.
Oh, and maybe you should take a teaspoon of truth, to help you handle the sugar
Nice try though, maybe youd better go back and brush up on current events a bit more. Then come back and tell us what your supposed "truth" is.
Should be quite interesting to read I must say.
(although, in your place perhaps drowning your willful blindness in alcohol would help to soothe the sting of realising your unquestioning faith in the right wing has long been betrayed by its mishandling of world events.)
Try re-reading your posts and imagine them being posted by one of the right-wingers. You'd see how ridiculous you seem.
Btw, are you now suggesting that my only way out is alcoholism? First sugar, then alcohol, my doctor won't be amused
Oh and yes, i do find you humorous. Misguided, but humourous.
btw: Im suggesting that if i were in your shoes, trying desperately to continue arguing for the legitimacy of the right wing agenda which has been undermined by its own deceit and mishandling, Id want to escape into a bottle too.
I really should be going, to drown my ignorance in alcohol, but you're way too amusing at this point.
Obviously you prefer to cling to the lies as if they will somehow become the truth. That's indeed a sign of irrational thought processes and delusion.
Doesnt take an oracle to make that clear. Merely opening your eyes and putting all the pieces together as growing numbers are doing day by day would suffice.
Don't forget that it was the US that installed Saddam and the Ba'athist (sp?) party in the first place. And supplied him with weapons. The US are willing to support murderous regimes when it suits them.
Now, because that I am wondering why you feel the need to bring in the factor of education in a discussion where it hasn't been mentioned, or that I think that Clandestine's ridiculous remark about me drowning my missery in a bottle cause of my opinions is an utter sign of stupidity, does not mean that I don't contain more than questioning and remarking.
On the other hand I do feel tired of repeating myself over and over. Look up my name under the politics section, you'll have reading material for a little while.
Now, if you have any questions, then ask, and I shall do my best to answer.
i'm just the voice from the street. the voice of the common man.
and sometimes ...just sometimes ...common sense rules over education.
your reply was; How I love the mocking of education and prospects on these boards.
No one has said that your voice doesn't count.
I can't recall people stating "I am educated, therefore I know better", only when they're actually educated in that specific field the discussion is built upon.
Why do you need to bring in the whole education factor into this?
so from those few words that were suggesting i hopefully had a little common sense that just might occasionaly win out over education, you read into into it that i am mocking education....bringing the whole education factor into it. stating that i'm saying my own voice doesnt count. all this 'im educated therefore i know better' ...don't know what it is your drinking but it's becoming more and more obvious why you never win any arguments ...and that your debating skills are realy quite atrocious!
no wonder you still believe the zionist crap and god loves america ...you have an amazing gift for missing completely what is being said and then adding your own fantastical visions to it all.
is this typical of the brainwashed right?
I sincerely don't get why you needed to bring it in. I just don't. To that you still haven't replied me something of relevance.
Other stuff; Can you tell me who has ever won an argument here? Seriously?
The level of this forum has taken a rapid fall. No one feels the need to specify anything, go into depth etc. as everyone knows each others views, and everyone here is a self-proclaimed oracle.
Zionist crap, is your perception of it. But when I face people on the street yelling out to my face "Heil Hitler" like I did last night, then Zionism isn't crap at all. When I think of my grandmother having to flee twice, cause of her religion, which she didn't even practice, then no it isn't crap, it's a back-up plan, which I hope I should never have to use against my will.
God loving America? Not more than others. But I hate the fashion-trend of bashing America. Utter ridiculous, when it's a country which does indeed commit mistakes, but I do not believe in any way that they're made of a bad will, which others prefer to represent it as.
I am human, I do misunderstand, but I am not stupidm and I do in most cases know to see what's behind.
Typical brainwashed right? My teacher from 1st grade up until 9th, was a leftwinger, and it was clear. My parents have never imposed their views on me, nor really discussed politics unless I brought it up.
But I do know how to add 2 and 2 together, to get to the point where I get the result that my present choices of belief are what are the best for me now.
you have accused me of being anti american and i have stated i still look to america as an exciting and dynamic country. endless possibilities. you accuse lots of others on here of being anti american when ...even americans ...simply becuase they are anti bush and his cronies. against the corrupt and decietful policies they are manipulating the great american people with ...and still you see us all as anti american.
i'm not going to bother any more with this as your statements are fucking meaningless and plain annoying. your pathetic.
Have anything else to add, to your fine words?
Quote by M. Roll
Roll, you obviously did not read the Gallup Poll posted above:
Let me assist you: Quote from the poll. (link above)
• Sixty-three percent say the situation in Iraq was worth going to war over. That's exactly the same as the readings from two July Gallup Polls that asked this question, and higher than the late June reading of 56%.
The same people opposing the war are the core 30% of leftist Democrats that oppose any action from the Bush Administration. That won’t change, but Middle America supports this President. (And not just right wing sycophants as claimed by Clandistine)
right this mo bandit i can't refute that but ...keep an eye on those figures and i'll bet ya they change against you. and soon. and with ever increasing speed.
Quote by M.Roll
Do you realize how ludicrous that statement is?
What gives you the idea we in America don’t have access to the same media outlets you do?
Have you heard of the internet? (Obviously, since you’re utilizing it)
Quote by M.Roll
No, I live in the land of the free and the home of the brave.
How is it that you flush my post, but not confront the bile which I responded to?
Personal political persuasion take precedence over equity?
You allow clandestine to call me "trailor park trash" - which would get his face turned to a bloody pulp in a heartbeat, on this side of the Atlantic - but you disallow my responding to the BS he puts out?
I realize this bulletin board is run by left wingers, but are you afraid of being confronted, in kind?
you are indeed free ...to believe that.
lets get one thing straight here bandit ...i am not anti american.
NOT ok. you live in a huge and amazing country. you lot are our brothers by blood and history. your american dream is wonderful.
your short history is fantastic. you are a very determined and outward looking people. you realy do live in what could be termed the greatest civilisation ever devised so far. your exciting.
you have so much to give to the world and already have done.
i realy don't like the current trend of anti americanism. you the people are a free and inovative people. but ... an ever growing number of nations and individuals are becoming very concerned about your current administration. they are just not american in the true sense of the word. they are crooks. they are out to con you as well as me. they will be exposed for the lying cheating imoral ilegal scumbags that they are.
the world didn't wake up one morning hating you all. they woke up one morning very alarmed at what the bush agenda for the 21st century truly entails. you are going to suffer. i am going to suffer. we hate the current administration and are fully entitled to in the free world. i believe most of the american people will learn to hate them as well. i hope and pray you will. your current leaders are not the spirit of america. unless your a my country right or wrong kind of bumpkin.
here in the UK ...we end up with governments that we wake up to ...and we get rid as soon as possible. i fear that your going to loose the right to do that. possibly through some great terrorist atrocity that will mean marshall law and the suspension of elections. lots of people are predicting it. watch this space ...
Sometimes... you give that impression.
As to Charleton Heston? Well, he believes in and supports that all have the right to keep and bear arms, but... believes that no one has a justifiable right to "assault weapons".
Now, "assault weapons" are by definition FULLY AUTOMATIC, no semi auto civilian pretend-to-be versions. And there are some serious restrictions upon fully automatic weapons, inclusding they cannot have been manufactured (or converted) after 1988. So... true - and legal - assault weapons are getting worn out from use (full auto fire is VERY detrimental to the life of a firearm), are tremendously escalating in price, and getting rarer as the years roll by. Not to mention all of the bureaucratic hoops one must jump through to even take possession of one, months AFTER it has been paid for.
"A lot of people over (there)" buy into the distortions and propaganda which are bandied about, and have no basis of a perspective grounded in reality. I cannot speak knowledgibly concerning day-to-day life in Britain, because I do not live there on a day-to-day basis.
I will offer you the same scenario that my relationship with MoK evolved into... you ask me questions - rather than preach to me concerning what I live in - and I will respond to you respectfully.
Fair enough?
As far as trusting clandestine, concerning what is going on in America? Well... clandestine is an ex-patriot, NOT an American, and is damned proud of the fact. He hates the country he claims citizenship to, and works with his every breath to destroy it, just as his political hero, Klinton.
Seems the censors are afraid of the truth debunking the rhetoric of the left.
There was also refernece to clandestine's calling me "trailer park trash", whilest completely ignorant of my station in life, my economic situation, my education, etc. "Trailer park trash" is a RACIST EPITHET on this side of the Atlantic... Guess racism is allowed, as long as it is directed this way, and NOT towards you...
The facts have long been posted, I suggest you pay attention to the fact that Clinton is no longer the issue, Bush and his corrupt cronies and their program of fascist authoritarianism are.
Another load of bollocks from the Anne Coulter fan club.
Credibility zero!
Perhaps you require some educating as to the meaning of ex-pat, Thanatos. One does not give up one's passport nor nationality, nor love for one's country simply for living abroad. You and those like you on the other hand are happy to watch a criminal administration dismantle the country, its constitution and its international integrity from within, making you all the more an enemy of the nation.
Soon enough the neo-cons will be booted back under the rocks they emerged from so that the mess theyve made of the federal budget, the judiciary, the national energy sector, and countless other policy areas can be cleaned up.
That you choose willingly not to see the plain and unerring facts only goes to highlight the intellectual failure of your position.
How unsurprising then that threats of violence against those who present the truth of the Bushite dismantling of America is about the extent of the substance you offer.
Same comment can be levelled at the entire political spectrum, wouldn’t you say?
Do you think that the US forces were concerned about a few Arabs with RPGs before they invaded Iraq?
No they weren’t and now they are learning the lesson. I don’t suppose the same would happen to an invading army for the US? The point is proven time and time again, a country will a well armed populous is a sitload harder to “conquer” than one where there are no arms.
Tell me, if the bombers and tanks of the invading army wouldn’t be concerned about a few million (yes, million) armed people, how do you think they would view 55 million unarmed people?
As for a small armed force not causing many problems, perhaps you’ve never heard of the Resistance movements during WW2…
Absolutely.
The left believes that it is much better that totalitarian states are the only people allowed to impose anything on anyone. This way they will have someone to rally against.
Problem is that you look a little ridiculous campaigning for the overthrow of a democratically elected Govt. Much as the US govt is open to abuse from the left wing, at the end of the day the US citizen will decide if they stay or go.
That democracy actually allows people to make such choices seems to be irrelevant. But then the people of Iraq and Afghanistan never actually asked for democracy did they?
Oh hang on, yes they did. Problem was they had no way of grasping it for themselves…
So the British citizen detained there are Afghani soldiers now?
In which case, why should the UK govt be interested in them?
I’d agree with you on Afghani nationals, but the rest are mercenaries…
Why is Clinton no longer an issue? If Thanatos is correct and Clinton did aid the release of Atta then surely he is very much the issue. Especially when you consider your claim that the entire WTC attacks are a Bush plot. Surely this would suggest that Clinton was involved as well and that would put an entirely different spin on your ”right-wing oil barons behind it all” tirade.
Or is that why you are trying to dismiss the argument so quickly…
Indeed, you don’t give up your passport or your right to vote.
You do give up contributing to the country though – no taxes being just one of them. Still as long as you are outside chucking the stones in I suppose…
Indeed, but it isnt the whole political spectrum running (or more rightly "ruining") the show (in the US anyways). My comments are aimed at the arrogance with which the minority hawk position has railroaded itself into mainstream policymaking to the effect of undermining the Constitution, the due process of law, the budgetary health of the nation present and future and our international integrity.
My criticism of the Dem's in this ongoing situation has been their failure to stand up and counter the Bush agenda as the real threat to our nation from the start, but then thats what the trauma of 9/11 was intended to do, stifle all opposition.
I wholeheartedly agree and im sure my countrymen would resort to the very same sort of guerilla warfare against any invading host, I too would so defend my faimily and neighbours if the nation were invaded, but therein lies the crux of MY argument...
What the most vociferous neo-cons claim as their fundamental right and duty, they decry the Afghanis and Iraqis as terrorists for doing in defence against our foreign occupation of their land.
Hearkening back to the knee jerk reactionist position I see MoK.
I cant speak for the entire left but none that ive had dealings with consider totalitarian states as better in any respect. However, unlike the reactionary right, the left i am familiar with understands that adopting unilateralist authoritarianism will in no sense usher in any golden age of democracy, but rather little more than economically and politically controlled client states with consumerism ladelled on thick in an attempt to pacify the massess into full dependency on big brother.
Much like a pusher creating a captive market of addicts. Such is an insult to many around the world who are proud of their own unique culture and heritage.
You go right on ignoring the truth of the situation if it suits your fantasy that democracy is being brought to either Afghanistan or Iraq. In both cases those with the determinant say in any and all matters are those flown in by the conquering powers to serve western interests, not the will of the indigenous people.
Actually, it turns out that this is nothing but an internet rumour based on all too typical shoddy right wing finger pointing by those desperate to avoid facing the concrete and documented security failures, and worse, collusion of this Bush administration with its direct ties to the Bin Laden family and other players on the "dark side" (as you once put it sometime back).
http://www.adl.org/rumors/atta_rumors.asp
How interesting the silence on answering those facts on behalf of their supposed great leader. But then, Bush and co had reams of intelligence, despite lies to the contrary, going back to the Clinton administration to prepare them and our security readiness well in advance. Such information was simply disregarded for the massive opportunity and control the tragic events have now long been seen to have brought to this Bush administration.
The list of Bush admin dealings with those at the heart of the Al Qaeda threat is the real issue, the ball was in their court and they let it drop.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO303D.html
Seems you also have some need of education on the the nature of being an ex-pat.
If my tax home is declared as my country of residence then indeed i would gain an exclusionary ceiling on my US taxes and not have to actually pay tax back home. Since my tax home remains the US such is not the case.
As for chucking stones, id rather that than bombs and lies as we've getting no end of from the current White House.
Not at the moment, no. But that wasn't my point certainly at some point the "left" have been in a position of power and have shown themselves to be equally as hypocritical.
That is what I was trying to say.
I wouldn't argue with that. But then I would expect a President to surround himself with people who think like he does.
Or did Clinton have right wing anti abortionists (for example) on his staff?
I would argue that the same complaint to be levelled against the opposition over here. Except that the opposition here is the right-wing reactionary party...
Are the fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq citizens? Certainly the "evidence" doesn't support that assertion...
...
You go right on ignoring the truth of the situation if it suits your fantasy that democracy is being brought to either Afghanistan or Iraq. In both cases those with the determinant say in any and all matters are those flown in by the conquering powers to serve western interests, not the will of the indigenous people.[/b][/quote]
Regimes which, thanks to the right to vote, can be removed by the population at a later date, if they so choose...
Which is a much better reposnse than your first one. Thank you, have copied and will read the second link later...