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the patriot act ...

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent
    Not at the moment, no. But that wasn't my point certainly at some point the "left" have been in a position of power and have shown themselves to be equally as hypocritical.

    That is what I was trying to say.

    Yes and do not think that i wont be scrutinising the next Democratic admin that takes the office. Certainly two of the current Dem candidates are on record as being little more than unquestionning sycophants to the Bush agenda and do not deserve the office of President.
    I wouldn't argue with that. But then I would expect a President to surround himself with people who think like he does.

    Or did Clinton have right wing anti abortionists (for example) on his staff?

    Of course the president surrounds himself with likeminded people. However in the case of this administration those include both indicted and un-indicted criminals from as far back as the Reagan years as well as advisors with divided loyalties (dual Israeli/US citizens).

    Not that the issue of who the president surrounds himself with is relevant to the point originally made.

    Don't know of any anti-abortionists who were in Clinton's circle.

    Are the fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq citizens? Certainly the "evidence" doesn't support that assertion...

    And pray tell what concrete evidence have you or any of us been shown concerning precisely whom is responsible for any of the attacks which have occurred since Bush's famous "end of hostilities"?

    What we've been fed through the corporate media is nothing but a barrage of claims that its all Saddam supporters. Its as if we're to believe that only Baathists have grievances against the occupation, when its been fairly clear that the cheering throngs never emerged to welcome US conquest.

    Regimes which, thanks to the right to vote, can be removed by the population at a later date, if they so choose...

    And i challenge you to demonstrate where this right has been instituted. In Afghanistan the extent of our "liberation" is confined to Kabul where Karzai (the installed puppet) is surrounded by regional warlords who have retained their control the majority of the country and continue to be coddled by the Bush admin in order to safeguard the only thing that war was meant to secure.... the oil pipeline to mid-Asian oil reserves.

    So too with Iraq. We have a ruling council largely imposed by the US, stuffed choc-a-bloc with Bush sycohpants from Dearborn Michigan who have little or no legitimacy amongst average Iraqis and a process which has from the start dictated who can be party to any future government and who cant.

    Yes, all told a shining start to these vibrant democracies you believe in so readily. :rolleyes:
    You can stand on the outside throwing stones in the window, and miss. Or you can get inside and make sure you hit the bugger right between the eyes...

    Well, thanks to the marvels of modern communications and the internet, there is no inside or outside as things go. And being in a nexus of international political activity like Brussels, I am as inside as I need to be, thanks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Yes and do not think that i wont be scrutinising the next Democratic admin that takes the office. Certainly two of the current Dem candidates are on record as being little more than unquestionning sycophants to the Bush agenda and do not deserve the office of President.

    Tell me about it, at the moment we have a Conservative Govt in Labour clothing (in the main). The next Govt could very well just mean that they have the right clothes on...

    Do you get the feeling that effective opposition is something from a bygone age?
    Of course the president surrounds himself with likeminded people. However in the case of this administration those include both indicted and un-indicted criminals from as far back as the Reagan years as well as advisors with divided loyalties (dual Israeli/US citizens).

    Not that the issue of who the president surrounds himself with is relevant to the point originally made.

    Don't know of any anti-abortionists who were in Clinton's circle.

    Agree that we don't like the people with whom out leaders surround themselves - whether that is cosying up to big business or Unions, but we all know that the man we vote for will do just that.

    In the UK this lead to the downfall of the Labour Govt in '79 and almost 20 years in opposition. The electorate making their wishes known. Do you think that the same thing could happen in the US - eventually...?
    And pray tell what concrete evidence have you or any of us been shown concerning precisely whom is responsible for any of the attacks which have occurred since Bush's famous "end of hostilities"?

    What we've been fed through the corporate media is nothing but a barrage of claims that its all Saddam supporters. Its as if we're to believe that only Baathists have grievances against the occupation, when its been fairly clear that the cheering throngs never emerged to welcome US conquest.

    I have personally seen evidence of the people who were involved in the defence of Iraq. Sadly I cannot say how because it would breach so many different rules (including patient confidentiality!) but trust me there were more than a few foreign nationals defending Iraq from "western aggression".

    I seriously doubt that things have changed now, on the contrary I would expect it to have worsened.

    Additionally, I also have seen the evidence of support for the invasion. Personally, I believe that unless the UN gets itself more involved such goodwill will disserpate under the guise of "occupation for Oil"...
    And i challenge you to demonstrate where this right has been instituted. In Afghanistan the extent of our "liberation" is confined to Kabul where Karzai (the installed puppet) is surrounded by regional warlords who have retained their control the majority of the country and continue to be coddled by the Bush admin in order to safeguard the only thing that war was meant to secure.... the oil pipeline to mid-Asian oil reserves.

    So too with Iraq. We have a ruling council largely imposed by the US, stuffed choc-a-bloc with Bush sycohpants from Dearborn Michigan who have little or no legitimacy amongst average Iraqis and a process which has from the start dictated who can be party to any future government and who cant.

    Yes, all told a shining start to these vibrant democracies you believe in so readily. :rolleyes:

    Do I think that these are were we need to be, ulitmately? No

    Do I think that it is a step in the process? Yes

    There needs to be a little stability in both of those countries, whilst they move towards free and open elections. This will come, patience is required...

    To be honest, I'm not sure how much I have, but I know that yours was lost ages ago ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Its as if we're to believe that only Baathists have grievances against the occupation, when its been fairly clear that the cheering throngs never emerged to welcome US conquest.

    Must be that the film footage of the toppling of Saddam's statues were created in a soundstage, in Burbank, and then quietly slipped around the world. :lol:
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    And being in a nexus of international political activity like Brussels, I am as inside as I need to be, thanks.

    I do believe that what you are within the center of - in Brussels - has already been voiced, and it is certainly NOT anything other than indulging in sycophantic distortions to further the propagandist relishing of a nefarious agenda.

    And your perspective is most OBVIOUSLY warped by that agenda.

    I am still sufficiently close to the military as to have first person accounts come steadily to me from those who have been in Iraq, and amongst the whining concerning the lack of luxuries - from kids who think what they have witnessed is the TRUE face of war, rather than an astonishing submission - is the fact that so MANY of the Iraqi are indeed voicing their joy at Hussein being deposed.

    You, the clandestine-collaborator, who have no knowledge of the reality of war, need to educate yourself as to the incredible difference between "the end of major actions" and "the end of hostilities". But then... that would deprive you of your best bureaucratic capability - would it not - the opportunity to indulge in spin doctoring and distortion. :naughty:

    ... if not simply outright lies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Your tagline rather sums up your arrogant self-important delusion of entitlement, does it not?
    And being in a nexus of international political activity like Brussels, I am as inside as I need to be, thanks.


    __________________
    I AM AWESOME!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent




    Do I think that these are were we need to be, ulitmately? No

    Do I think that it is a step in the process? Yes

    There needs to be a little stability in both of those countries, whilst they move towards free and open elections. This will come, patience is required...

    To be honest, I'm not sure how much I have, but I know that yours was lost ages ago ;)

    Agree totally with your assessment, Sir.

    One must continually remind themselves that we are speaking of self-determination to a people who have never experienced such... It will not come easily.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Yes and do not think that i wont be scrutinising the next Democratic admin that takes the office.

    Certainly, your political hero - the Komrad Klinton - was the object of such pointed examination. Strange that the criminals he comported himself with have been given such a WHITEWASH... :rolleyes:

    ... including his and his wife's rape of the Whitehouse before they left, like the little carperbaggers they are, stuffing all that could be carried into their bags, before escaping with their booty. :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent
    Tell me about it, at the moment we have a Conservative Govt in Labour clothing (in the main). The next Govt could very well just mean that they have the right clothes on...

    Do you get the feeling that effective opposition is something from a bygone age?

    I can't speak for the UK but when the American political system can be hijacked by a minority opinion catering only to Elitest self interest and backed by a populace all to ready to believe the gloosy drivel paraded before them on tv as god's own truth (until the house of cards is blown away revealing the lies that is) then I would also have to question the future of any viable opposition from either of the entrenched parties.

    What is needed is a viable third or perhaps 4th or even 5th party in a nation as diverse and extensive as the US.
    Agree that we don't like the people with whom out leaders surround themselves - whether that is cosying up to big business or Unions, but we all know that the man we vote for will do just that.

    In the UK this lead to the downfall of the Labour Govt in '79 and almost 20 years in opposition. The electorate making their wishes known. Do you think that the same thing could happen in the US - eventually...?

    I can hope for nothing better than the ousting of the time proven failure of Repubblican politics from control of Washington and the nation. Sadly, as much as this administration has highlighted its treasonous disregard for our Constituion and all other founding principles upon which our nation was built, they'll find some new trick to rig themselves back into office next year or at some future point.
    I have personally seen evidence of the people who were involved in the defence of Iraq. Sadly I cannot say how because it would breach so many different rules (including patient confidentiality!) but trust me there were more than a few foreign nationals defending Iraq from "western aggression".

    I seriously doubt that things have changed now, on the contrary I would expect it to have worsened.

    Additionally, I also have seen the evidence of support for the invasion. Personally, I believe that unless the UN gets itself more involved such goodwill will disserpate under the guise of "occupation for Oil"...

    I didnt say that their werent others rushing to join in the fray. The presence of Afghanis, Pakistanis, Syrians, Saudis and others is well known. That however is not evidence of who precisely has been waging guerilla warfare from one end of the coutnry to the other.

    If you believe the Bushite spin all these acts are committed only by Saddam loyalists which current events and reporting of the sentiments of large portions of the Shia population have shown to a hollow attempt to justify continued occupation.
    Do I think that it is a step in the process? Yes

    There needs to be a little stability in both of those countries, whilst they move towards free and open elections. This will come, patience is required...


    How ever so interesting that these same arguments for patience and process pour so readily from the lips of those who rubbished such very arguments in a mad rush to get the conquest started. Now that one by one all the grounds used to justify the flagrant disregard for international law have been reduced to "saddam was a bad man" such arguments ring hollow indeed.

    The only thing the coalition's task masters are awaiting is a return to operational stability for the Iraqi oil pumping and processing industry.
    to be honest, I'm not sure how much I have, but I know that yours was lost ages ago ;)

    Sorry, this seems a rather disconnected comment. Care to clarify what you claim I lost a while ago?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine


    What is needed is a viable third or perhaps 4th or even 5th party in a nation as diverse and extensive as the US.

    What do you know. For once we agree.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Must be that the film footage of the toppling of Saddam's statues were created in a soundstage, in Burbank, and then quietly slipped around the world.

    LOL> Let us take a roster of such famous Thanatos misclaims as:

    1. Mohammed Attah adsolutely proven to have met with Iraqi officials in the Czech Republic.

    A claim clung to by our continually misinformed poster even after reports of admission by Czech authorities that they were mistaken and no such meeting took place.

    2. Clinton let Mohammed Atta go free...

    Another claim which turns out to be nothing more than a typical right wing rumour. Keep digging in that dirty tricks bag felix, one of these days you and your ilk will find another lie that snows the public (for a while anyways).

    and now its reference to images of the pulling down of Saddam's statue. An event that also was shown to be a contrived media event packed with Bush's INC fly-ins from Dearborn Michigan and a handful of actual Iraqis.

    http://globalresearch.ca/articles/NYI304A.html

    Obviously this staged media spectacle worked its charm as well as the Jessica Lynch hoax. Thank god for embedded, monitored and controlled journalism! :lol:

    All told though, its hardly surprising such facts should escape one who's intellectual hero is Anne Coulter. :rolleyes:

    Enough said
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    LOL> Let us take a roster of such famous Thanatos misclaims as:

    1. Mohammed Attah adsolutely proven to have met with Iraqi officials in the Czech Republic.

    Since you are posting lies, AGAIN, perhaps you will provide a link to where I EVER made that "claim"? :lol:

    A little revisionist history, by the spin-doctor elitest?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    What is needed is a viable third or perhaps 4th or even 5th party in a nation as diverse and extensive as the US.

    We already have three main parties. One is always in such a minority that they don't really count. At the moment it's the Liberals, previously it was Labour.

    Here's hoping soon it will be the Tories...
    That however is not evidence of who precisely has been waging guerilla warfare from one end of the coutnry to the other.

    If you believe the Bushite spin all these acts are committed only by Saddam loyalists which current events and reporting of the sentiments of large portions of the Shia population have shown to a hollow attempt to justify continued occupation.

    Is this an insinuation that the attacks are CIA backed groups, or are you highlighting that other groups are vying for power there?

    Remember that Iraq had "no connection" with terrorist groups. So where did these "foreigners" suddenly appear from?
    How ever so interesting that these same arguments for patience and process pour so readily from the lips of those who rubbished such very arguments in a mad rush to get the conquest started.

    When we've spent 13 years trying to get a democratically elected Govt there we can have this point raised again. Until then...
    Sorry, this seems a rather disconnected comment. Care to clarify what you claim I lost a while ago? [/B]

    Patience. As applied to getting democratic systems in place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine


    Obviously this staged media spectacle worked its charm as well as the Jessica Lynch hoax. Thank god for embedded, monitored and controlled journalism! :lol:

    Who created the pfc Lynch hoax, in the first place! :lol:

    Again, post a link to where I EVER called pfc Lynch a "hero".

    You cannot, because :

    a) it is a LIE, and

    b) I have made it QUITE clear that I do not believe in the concept of heroes.

    But when did THAT ever constrain you manufacturing of propagandist lies, distortions, and just basic BS? :crazyeyes
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah so now I manufactured the Lynch lie? LOL.

    Your argumentation is sliding into the realms of the ridiculous, but again that is hardly surprising.

    No little man, that contrivance, like the other contrivances you rush to cite without checking your facts, was a creation of those of your ilk currently betraying every oath of their office with the help of their media cronies.

    Of course, with your post above, youve just admitted to supporting an administration which have been shown repeatedly to be nothing more than liars!

    Bravo! If your credibility could sink further it would have just taken a nosedive! :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For the learning impaired...

    "Thank god for embedded, monitored and controlled journalism!"

    refers to the exact same group of idiots who created the hoax, in the first place.

    And you - LITTLE MAN - are enough of a fool to believe what the idiots write?

    Classic...
    :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No Thanatos, and if you had an ounce of awareness beyond the energy you channel into your Anne Coulter inspired bile and hatemongering you'd see how even more ridiculous your accusations are becoming.

    I have never trusted the embedded journalists' ability to report non-censored and accurate accounts of the conquest. The independent journalists, many of which were shot dead (oops, no cover up attempts at work there :rolleyes: ) by our troops, were a much more credible source of the fuller picture (where they happened to be at any rate).

    The Lynch hoax and the wonderfully contrived pulling down of Saddam's statue under headlines giving the false impression that Chalabi and his supporters (the bulk of those few actually present in the square) were real indigenous revellers are just classic examples of the sorts of lies which those of your militant persuasion swarmed over like flies as vindication of a policy undermined from the start by its own bogus misapprehension of the Iraqi mindset and history and blinded by its own self-righteous messianic delusions.

    Oh and you can thank the Pentagon along with the compliant mainstream media for engineering the sanitised propaganda of this war, their stock and trade when it comes to keeping the US (and any other) public in the dark about actual happenings on the ground.

    http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/2003/03/24/1048354540995.htm

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030330/80/dwlc5.html

    http://media.guardian.co.uk/presspublishing/story/0,7495,903552,00.html

    http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqandthemedia/story/0,12823,924594,00.html

    http://www.mediainfo.com/editorandpublisher/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1852689

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2903503.stm

    http://www.rense.com/general36/ssob.htm
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Globe
    Fact: THERE HAVE BEEN MORE CASUALTIES IN IRAQ AFTER GWB DECLARED THAT THE MAJOR BATTLES ARE OVER, THAN DURING THE ACTUAL INVASION AND CONQUEST...

    But then, that reality would be a rude and inconvenient tweak to your prejudice, would it not? :lol:
    Oops! I certainly appear to have crossed into an alternate reality. A reality in which Globe uses the facts above to support an argument (which argument must now be unassailable, presumably).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Uncle Joe
    Oops! I certainly appear to have crossed into an alternate reality. A reality in which Globe uses the facts above to support an argument (which argument must now be unassailable, presumably).
    what on earth made you bring this old thread up ...i've just had to read through the whole friggin' thing to remember why i started it ...and start it it surely did\!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :D Sorry, blame ol' Razorbladekiss. She thought it would be a good idea to link it to the 'Darling Israelis' thread, in order to prove that Clandestine called her a drunk, and I noticed I hadn't read it all...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    She volunteered her own night's revelries all on her own and made them an element of her excuse for dodging the issue.

    Blaming me for picking up on it and claiming I was suggesting she had a condition is merely another instance of sidestepping the discussion at hand.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Now, dude, in defence of Jacqueline, because otherwise she'll be forced to post to say that she's not goint to start this again, and it could get really messy:

    No-one can look at the thread and conclude that she was irrefutably fraudulously trying to avoid discussion. Everybody has to log off some time. Portraying a response to that as an accusation of alcoholism was a bit extreme, though...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Uncle Joe
    Now, dude, in defence of Jacqueline, because otherwise she'll be forced to post to say that she's not goint to start this again, and it could get really messy:

    No-one can look at the thread and conclude that she was irrefutably fraudulously trying to avoid discussion. Everybody has to log off some time. Portraying a response to that as an accusation of alcoholism was a bit extreme, though...

    I did say in the other thread that those weren't the exact words of his...
    And look at his reply, he doesn't deny it when I write alcoholism in this thread.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, obviously your comprehension of English isnt good enough to see that I did clearly dismiss your accusation by stating quite clearly that I simply referred to your comment about that night's drinking. No suggestion or even intimation of any longterm drinking problem made by me.

    Perhaps you should take your own regular advice to others and grow up. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ahem!! Turning to other matters, does anyone know how many, if any, US newspapers have published cartoons featuring Howard Dean, with apologies to Edward Munch..? ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    No, obviously your comprehension of English isnt good enough to see that I did clearly dismiss your accusation by stating quite clearly that I simply referred to your comment about that night's drinking. No suggestion or even intimation of any longterm drinking problem made by me.

    Perhaps you should take your own regular advice to others and grow up. :rolleyes:


    That night isn't stated anywhere, dear.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh really? Seems you have memory problems then, let's just remind the viewing audience of your words then shall we?
    if that is what you want you'll have to wait 'til tonight or tomorrow, depends how sober I am when I'll get home

    That ends that dispute, now care to show us an ounce of intelligent discussion on the issue at hand for a change? Or will you persist in this ridiculous evasion tactic?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fact: THERE HAVE BEEN MORE CASUALTIES IN IRAQ AFTER GWB DECLARED THAT THE MAJOR BATTLES ARE OVER, THAN DURING THE ACTUAL INVASION AND CONQUEST...

    What about people who died because of sanctions beforehand?

    Just thought I'd mention that.
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