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It depends on their situation. Murder is a very wide ranging word, there are different types of murder. I believe that those people that kill in what are called 'crimes of passion' can be rehabilitated. For the more barbaric or pointlessly violent murderers then I dont think they can. I dont believe the Bulger killers can be rehabilitated.
No I dont think that murderers are born. They are products of their environment.
Assuming violent crime is in the genes and assuming we can check this with 100% accuracy then yes, I think such people should be removed from society. Killed? You must have missed my arguments on the rest of this thread. No they should not be killed.
What about people who murder to directly gain something most obviously lots of money or power.
They probably planned the murder but you probably wouldn't say they were disturbed or would you.....
Could they be (should they?) be rehabilitated?
I don't beleive someone can be rehabilitated - in most cases, the scumbag is a killer and has no redeeming qualities. If one is able to plan out thoughtfully, the forceful removal of another's life, society should and must do the same to the said criminal - anything else would be a waste of time and money.
A better person? well here in the US we have inmates on death row all finding religion - pick your diety - Jesus, Buddah, Allah etc - thats nice and all but doesnt change the fact of what they did, nor does it do anything for my security because of the fact they were able to commit the act before their bullshit conversions.
Until more research is done on such defects as you suggest, I think its prudent we allow justice to handle all killers the same.
Im no expert on rehabilitation but Im yet to be convinced that it works.
Not quite true. It leaves most of the world blind. Those who are especially good at exacting said punishment and avoiding having it placed upon them retain their sight. <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
(2) If society kills it is no better than the murderer / rapist / burglar.
Two wrong actions or two wrong motivations? While Joe Criminal killed, he (presumably) killed for a reason other than the 'good' of society.
It is a very serious point, I agree. But then, if one accepts the principle that there can be no action permitted to a group but forbidden to an individual one automatically disavows all forms of collective living and governance.
(3) Killing is barabric! / Violence never solves anything!
Barbaric it may be, but naked force has resolved more issues than any other in history. Anyone propounding the view that violence solves nothing has never discussed the issue with the city fathers of Carthage or Hiroshima... oh! they're dead, aren't they. <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
(4) Rehabilitation doesn't work.
Debatable. Human personalities can be moulded -- children as prime example. Two questions present themselves:
(a) Can adults change their personalities?
(b) (Subtly different.) Are there people who simply cannot act in ways we would consider consistent with civic responsibility? E.g. those incapable of rational thought, those with extreme and incurable hormonal imbalances, &c.?
(5) Criminals deserve to suffer anyway!
Several points:
(a) There is a distinction to be drawn between illegal and immoral. An example close to Americans' hearts: Washington, Jefferson and company were without doubt criminals (they acted in violation of British law) but few would decry their actions as immoral.
(b) Why should they suffer, qua suffering? If I make a mistake in training (Aikido / Tai Chi / Kung Fu) I don't need pain to spur me on to do better -- the shame of failure and my natural bloody-minded "I will do better" attitude are all that I need.
Secondary to that, though -- because I admit that not all people have that kind of mental attitude -- why should the aim of punishment be to make an offender suffer? Surely the aim is to produce a responsible citizen out of the present mess of a human being, yes? Why should pain for the sake of pain be a part of that process? By all means apply pain carefully as a surgeon does a scalpel -- but the moulding of human lives is too serious a business to be left to sadistic, bullying instincts.
(6) But I'd feel better knowing my child's killer was dead!
With all due respect to the loved ones of murder victims, what they want is no part of the damn question! The purpose of a criminal justice system is not the assuaging of grief -- it is the provision of justice. Only in the most backwards countries (Balkans, most of Africa, &c.) does 'justice' equate to 'revenge.' The whole point is dispassionate, objective judgement.
cf. my post concerning Hiroshima under "Iraq to be bombed" - it didn't solve anything.
IN the 50s 60s many people risked death to avoid the regime under which they we kept. They were willing to die rather than live without freedom.
I would also ask you to look into yourself and consider the Bulger killers (as an example), they have to spend the rest of their lives in fear - and fear is the biggest weapon man can use. They will fear the next knowck on the door, they will fear eveytime the phone rings, they will spend the rest of their lives looking over their shoulders wondering if they have been discovered.
Effectively they become prisoners of their own minds - a truly frightening concept.
Now would you prefer conscious thought which is forever fear, or would you prefer oblivion where you feel nothing, fear nothing and have nothing to worry about?
Well done all you bitch-boy sheep <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Eb and Devil, you say all murderers should be exectuted. Should we extend that to the police? Should we include homeowners defending their homes? You cannot have one set of rules for one person, and a completely different set for another.
As for naked force solving everything, I'd much rather see a world where diplomacy is the chosen method. We all know Japan was on the verge of surrender anyway, nuking them didn't make them think any different.
the regimes of the 50's and 60's ussr 'establishments' are hardly comparable to modern day british prisons.
this, its worse going to prison than dying just doesn't wash, i can't see how <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> the bulger killers may well be living in some lovely apartment in the bahama'a right now, pissing themselves how easy they got off, but i'm reserved on using them as an example due to their age, but they ain't in deepest darkest liverpool that is for sure <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
why do so many of prisoners on death row seek appeal ? under your ideas they should be fighting to get into the gas tank, and that is as bad as prison gets no doubt.
i just love life too much i guess, any alternative to death must be considered a viable option ? especially with no physical pain ? I mean you speak of english prison as if it compares to a japanese prisoner of war camp, they get food, water, shelter, exercise, medical treatment, mental stimulation, social interactions its hardly hell is it ? most of these people feel no remorse for what they have done, well i bet they'd think twice about how justifyed their actions were on death row ?
You call these actions barbaric, but they can only be compared to americans dropping bombs on al-queda (sp?) training camps ? killing terrorists ? in fact any retaliation in war would be no more barbaric than the death sentence ? And as i've said before, killing them may brand us murderers but were already kidnappers if we hold them against their will ? some for crimes far less 'evil' than kidnapp <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
All throughout the animal kingdom, animals kill other animals, its natural, instictive -what even gives society the right to arrest somebody for carrying out actions they evolved to perform ? In the cold light of day it doesn't, but luckily we've developed a system which deems anyone a danger to others shouldn't be exposed to others and so imprisoned. Well whats so 'living in the past' about killing those who have killed ? why is that our barbaric past ? lets just remove them and be done with it, book closed, no fuss, no hype, just find them 110% guilty whip em out the back and wash our hands of them ?
i would only execute select select murderers based on the circumstance of each individual murder, some murderers don't deserve to be killed, sometimes they happen on the spur of the moment, these people i almost sympathise with, but some not so, the likes of sarah paynes killer or serial killers are a whole new ball game and i fail to see why we bother with them in any respect other than pushing the button and dropping em 6ft under <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
fear of what exactly <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> why don't they commit suicide then <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
so were the people they killed besides they aren't worthy of the same title normal decent folk are attached to, consider them scum sucking pond life <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
In my most loving and caring manner, I attempted to come to a solution which would enable the poor pathetic felon to step beyond his plight. If the problem was the mineral IMBALANCE that the lead deposits in his shin caused, then a "supplemental mineral injection" of say 230 grns of lead, administered cranially, would "alter (its) aberrent behavior"... <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Thus came the signature line below. <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
While all of you "enlightened" souls pride yourself in your residence in a "higher moral plane", what you fail to realize is that the violent criminals are NOT "enlightened", and give not a flying sideways f#ck about your high minded ideals. Like other preditors, they seek out the weak and lame. What you have done is simply give them a safe breeding grounds without the checks and balances of nature.
Be happy with what you have wrought upon yourselves... and hide within your delusions of "safety"... <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Well, I would never claim that poverty is the sole motivation for criminal behaviour (because it isn't the sole reason, and we all know that), but I would certainly not discount it as a poosible cause. I'm sure that we're all capable of imagining scenarios (many poverty-based) in which the only action capable of keeping one alive is technically criminal.
Point of interest: Thanatos, how would you regard someone who chose to be law-abiding but poor (or even dead) as opposed to someone whose "will to life" came before their sense of legality / morality? I'd be quite interested in your opinion. <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
I said earlier that the current prison system is not what I support. My wish would be to see a prison system such as maybe Chinas or Iraqs..Something really not so pleasant.
Murder and established self defense are 2 different things. I dont think you want to go there.
ah, no. we're talking about killing somebody. People in support of capital punishment muist learn you cant have one set of rules for one person and another set for a different person.
Several people here have made it quite clear that if you kill someone, regardless of cicumstance than you are a murderer and should be executed. Are you now saying this is not the case?
Ya know, Mac, you have this faculty for posing respectful queries that I rather enjoy! <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Personally... How I "judge" people is not so superficial as to rate them upon their wealth, possessions, how they clothe themselves, etc. Step beyond the superficial and examine WHO they are, and what they stand for.
Personally... I have had periods of years when I was comfortable, tho NOT rich. I have earned an average of 1/4 million dollars each year at different times, in different professions. I have had moments when I was reduced to homelessness, just me, my sleeping bag, my motorcycle, and the .44 Magnum on my chest as I slept in public parks while still working 60 hours a week to pull myself out of the mire I found myself in.
Do you keep your word? Is honor a commitment, or a thing of convenience? How do you define "friend" (see honor)? Do you live your life straight up, or are you always looking for the angle? Where do you stand concerning personal individual responsibility and accountability?
I have an automotive repair shop in a rather affluent area, but I deal with ALL plateaus of society, from the 1963 Chevrolet beater driven by the welfare case, to the new Ferrari or Lamborghini driven by the professional basketball player. I deal with both McDonalds counter help and doctors and lawyers. How I treat them is dependent upon the attitude they carry through the front door, NOT the amount of money in their pocket.
Personally... I have much more respect for the scruffy clothed poverty case who is just trying to survive than the arrogant little shyte who comes in expecting genuflection upon his entrance. I have more respect for the working farmers who come in than the "personalities" from sports, TV, or movies. (Admittedly, this is from someone who has experienced sycophants queuing up for autographs when I raced...)
I hate thieves with a passion. I detest manipulators. Nothing will entreat me to "slice and dice" an ego as much as the combination of arrogance and incompetance. Arrogance tends to be a component of adolescence, especially in those who grow up within "privilege", but... unfortunately... many do not grow out of it.
Legality and morality are not coincidental; frequently, they are divergent. I value people from the perspective of the importance they place upon honor. Those who choose to be self-sufficient rate higher with me than those who have used/abused others to get where they are. As for "charity", I will give a helping hand to those who would help themselves, but not to those just looking for the hand-out.
That at all what you were looking for?
Yes... we witnessed Chamberlain's "diplomacy" with Hitler. Effective, wasn't it?
What the US had experienced was extremely bloody and brutal fighting on beaches, and what would YOU anticipate upon landing on Japan? 20 years later, Japanese troops were still fighting in remote areas, unaware that the war had ended. Japan is a WARRIOR society, however "diplomatic" they might be. War is a very different environment from the little microcosm of the classroom that you think of as "the world"...
You again present a naivite.
The commandment states "Do not commit murder". Many have mistaken that for "Do not kill". There is a difference, too subtle for you to comprehend, apparently.
As for the topic of "capitol punishment", I simply find it benficial to have the miscreant removed from life. It has nothing to do with rehabilitation, not retribution. It is simply cutting the cancer from the body...
[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
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[ 27-02-2002: Message edited by: Squinty ]
The actual commandmant is "Thou shalt not kill".
That applies to murderers, police officers, soldiers e.t.c. According to the bible, if you kill then you goto hell. Doesn't matter how you justify it, you are still killing somebody.
I personally don't believe in much of what the bible has to say. But in this area, giving the state the right to take someone's life is wrong. It is not upto the masses to decide who should live and who should die.
And besides i was brought up with the belief that two wrongs dont make a right! Its a simple rule i know, and possibly capital punishment is too big for its boots, but just because one person has died and one family has to go through grief, it doesnt mean that another person and another family should go through the same, yes the murderer deserves punishment, but perhaps not death.
Read it in Hebrew. THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER
At various times, God instructed His followers to kill every living thing, man, woman and child, animals, crops, EVERYTHING! There is a difference between the taking of life, and murder.
[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
Ed. personal attacks <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
[ 27-02-2002: Message edited by: Squinty ]
If you want to justify your killing of people as not murder then you do that. It is one thing for an individual to do that, it is infinitely worse for an all seeing, supposedly morally superior state to do it in the name of justice.
It's just a pity the majority of people don't agree with the idea of capital punishment anyway. How many states in America have it? And how many of those states actually make use of it? Last count Texas and Florida were the only ones killing people off. What a coincidence that they were the last states to abolish slavery as well. So much for progress <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
[ 27-02-2002: Message edited by: Squinty ]
I am interested that some of the people on here who have expressed views against excessive state power support capital punishment. The the legal right to the taking of life is surely the ultimate power the state has, what gives the state the right to take the lives of its citizens?
PS excuse my ignorance but what does 'Thanatos' mean because the Colombian army recently launched "Operation Thanatos" against the FARC rebels?
What we have here is the definitive example of arrogant hypocracy, of a person SOOO full of himself, the self-styled supremist/elitest. The same person who would deny the state the right to take a life for cause would murder his unborn child for convenience. "I have alot going on right now."
Such is why "whowhere's" existence disgusts me...
No I dont think anyone is suggesting regardless of circumstance a blanket guideline for execution. Clearly, killing in self defense is NOT murder - seeing as how that killing prevents ones own loss of life by someone intent on commiting a criminal and murderous act. The retailitory action of killing a would be killer therefore exempts the defender from the definition of murderer.
The person who laid the tag upon me thirty years ago was from Greek heritage; that should give you a hint as to where to look. It is the Greek personification of an act of Nature...
Ignorance is the state of unawareness, lack of education. You are broaching stupidity... Your ignorance does not make a thing so, anymore than the world being flat because you have not been around it. If you are going to argue a point, PONTIFICATE, then make yourself aware of the facts.
Such is the difference between "pride" and "arrogance". Arrogance is empty of substance; pride can back itself up...
{edit} btw... I am not Jewish either, just educated.
[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
A promise to free the 'revolutionary' malfactors and killers is then a promise that they will leave legitimate custody as 'heros' of that 'revolution.
All the time they go about killing and maiming and upon arrest scream police abuse, torture, and demand that the lawkeepers be accused while encouraging the public to forget their own crimes...against that very public.
A study of 'holy scriptures' can be interesting...I personally see the old books as about one man, his family and what they have been doing here for the last 8k+ years.
Now, "Thou shall not kill" is really some bad and antiquated translation for what must read today as: 'Do no murder against your own' and a close reading of about any version of the 'holy bible' makes it clear that you can kill anyone with impunity so long as they are not of your own 'tribe' or racial/religious group...and yes, the 'bible' is probably the most racist book ever written and distributed...but that is not the argument here.
Capital punishment is a necessary internal control when dealing with ones own people...in a multiculturalist society it becomes a 'revolutionary' (actually counter revolutionary) expedient requireing misapplication...there really is something to be said for a good lynching applied to a rapist or murderer in the middle of the street with everyone watching...good riddance and educational.
During wartime it is not unusual for drumhead courts martial of cowards and traitors with only a moments lapse between three minute trial and a bullet to the head...goes to the theory of 'kill one, terrorize ten thousand!'
<IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">