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It wasn't ignorance, it was a hypothetical situation. What he was asking was would you let morals stop you from carrying out an order like that, not did you actually do it...
To ask about killing NORTH Vietnamese farmers IS in ignorance. It could not have happened, as we were never north of the DMZ. It is out of the realm of the rational. Had the question been about SOUTH Vietnamese farmers, then it would have been responded to as a valid question.
The entire basis of the question was to attempt to enflame lies that have been posted so many times previously on this forum: the terroristic acts of murdering civilians was a tactic of the NVA and the Viet Cong, not the US forces, regardless of how so many ache for it to have been US troops engaging in that as a standard tactic...
Some prefer a world of fantasy; I live in a world of reality.
A similar question would be if I asked you "Have you stopped molesting little boys?" or "Have you been arrested lately for beating your wife?"
Did anyone on this boad ever witness or hear a first hand account of this happening?
Where did you hear about it, btw..?
I wouldnt have asked otherwise.
It happens today. All the time.
Ever hear of Sri Lanka? They use children as suicide bombers all the time, as young as ten or eleven. Of course, no one gives a shit about what the Tamil Tigers are doing, despite the fact that over 80,000 have died in the last decade.
Good point.
Note: I think it may have something to do with guns...
Greenhat, I take exception to your doubting of my word. Especially coming from the man who claims his position in the US army forbids him from criticizing any action perpetrated by the Israeli Army- despite being a different army of a different country, and despite that all of Greenhat 'bosses' from the US President down have at some point condemned some of the more brutal incidents committed by the Israelis. :rolleyes:
Yes, I have served in the army. I was in Spain's Parachuting 'elite' Brigade. Before you start lamenting the state of the Spanish armed forces, I should clarify that I had no option but to do my military service, which in Spain was compulsory until 2 or 3 years ago. Nowadays only volunteers are part of Spain's armed forces so I'm sure the Army down there is now populated with your types. The types who are brainwashed into obeying orders, no matter how barbaric they may seem, and dare no question the moral ethics of shooting into an unarmed crowd (oh, I beg your pardon, armed with stones). I would not walk away from my comrades in a situation where our lives are in peril like you claim. But I would walk away from state-sponsored murders and situations where the biggest danger to us from the 'enemy' was to be hit on the arm by a stone and we were made to fire live ammunition in reply.
I see that everybody concerned has conveniently ducked the question "what would you do in Nam if you were asked to 'cleanse' a village?" I couldn't care less whether the US soldiers had been in North Vietnam, South Vietnam or Indochina. It is a rhetorical question to illustrate the behaviour of some Israeli soldiers people in here are so eager to defend. So let me rephrase it, and see if we can get a straight answer from all the army men and would-be-soldiers in this forum. You are part of the attacking US forces to be in action soon in Iraq. Your officer lost a brother in Gulf War I and has a grunge against the Iraqis. You come across a village where a few villagers can be found together with some wounded, unarmed and surrendering Iraqi soldiers. Your officer looks at them and says: "Fuck the lot of them, they are stinky Iraqis, let's do them". Would you then think of the 'brotherhood of survival' and carry those orders for your comrades, Greenhat and Co.?
In the framework of what we are speaking about, suicide bombers, I am glad you heard what you heard, but with more than two years there, I never saw what you heard...
I did see Vietnamese chained to machine guns so that they could not run away..
Would you do that Alladin?
I did see Vietnamese tortured because they would not support the NVA/VC...
Would you do that, Alladin??
To force a village chief to tell where the village's food was hidden, the NVA/VC tortured him. They also used an iron pipe to break every bone in his wife's body...
Would you do that to feed yourself, Alladin..
If you were marooned on a desert island with a woman, would you force her to have sex with you by refusing to share your food, water, and shelter??
Would you Alladin?
Aren't my questions ignorant, stupid and avoiding?? Of course they are, just like your was.
Point is, that is conjecture.. ALL pure conjecture..
Allow me to ask.. If you were caught inside a burning house with a pistol, would you burn to death, shoot yourself to avoid being burnt to death or jump out the window to your death...
No matter what your answer is, you don't know and you will not know until it happens....
You might say, I oppose suicide so I would either jump or burn to death.. But when the fire begins burning your legs, as the flesh falls from the bone, we may hear a bang... We may not.. Who knows...
Or about you are watching some people trapped in a burning vehicle with NO possibility of escape.. Would you shoot them so they did not burn to death or would you watch them burn to death...
Would you listen to a child scream in pain or look into their eyes and kill them??
During the American Revolutionary War, would you have indiscriminately shot and hunt civilians??
All hypothetical situations for sure, but the answers might be very interesting...
However, that was not the subject under discussion.. Its a tangent taken to avoid discussion...
What we do know, is palestinian terrorist murder innocent men women and children.. They use a bomb or a weapon of mass destruction which kills indescriminately. We know their preference is to target noncombatants...
All these things we do know... But rather than debate the issues, some people avoid them. Heading out on poppycock or bullshyte tangents about Vietnam, or what some one would or would not do in a hypothetical situation...
The discussion was about the actions of REAL LIFE palestinians and terrorists...
That has very little to do with Vietnam or what any here would do in the hypothetical situations I described....
Just in case or if as usual you all duck the subject, we can switch to another hypothetical situation and ask how high is up... Or how low is down...
Or some other baloney to avoid answering..
Sorry, I'm not old enough to have served in Vietnam. Started my service in 1978. I also know of no officer in the US Army who would even consider giving the order you have suggested. It would be the end of their career and likely the end of their days of freedom. Leavenworth is not a nice place. Having done duty in the Multi-National Force of Observers in the Sinai, and dealt with a fair share of Israelis, I doubt that any Israeli officer would give such an order either. But then again, you aren't willing to actually open your eyes to what is going on there beyond what is reported in the mass media, are you? Nor are you willing to consider any option except soldiers being forced into attrocities.
Take a trip to Israel, Aladdin. Do some first hand observation.
But I do know of leaders of fundimentalist muslim organizations that give such orders quite often.. I also know of members of the same fundimentalist radical muslim organizations that carry them out, also quite often..
I also know of a leader of a nation named Iraq that has no problem giving such orders and has many who are more than willing to carry them out..
Not quite a hypothetical situation, but a real one.. But let's continue to ignore the reality of innocent noncombatant men women and children being murdered and focus our full attention on hypothetical situations....
Having volunteered for two tours in Vietnam, and serving as a combat grunt, I will make the issue unanimous for those who have the ability to speak from a perspective of realitiy, rather than conjecture: I never served under an officer who would have given such an order.
As to conjecture vs. reality? Some have experienced, and others never will. Seems to be the line of demarcation...
For the benefit of reverse? Aladdin is the resident apologist for ALL acts, actions, and philosophical perspective of the Palestinians... He also has a consistent hard-on for all things American.
Can't know the players unless you have a program...
For the benefit {?} of Aladdin? You are speaking to veterans of real combat. Those who volunteered, and served, including a large chunk of their lives under fire. They did not serve in a glorified Boy Scout platoon, and they carry the remembrances upon/within their bodies as a constant reminder of those experiences.
How many days did you spend in REAL combat? How many days did you take incoming from those whose focus was to kill you? How many times were you wounded? How many of your squad members did you see killed next to you? When you can speak from a perspective of those experiences, then your comments concerning "brainwashing" might be listened to; until then, it is simply so much public masturbation... for your own benefit, and interesting to no one else.
I was watching a program on The History Channel concerning WW2, and they were talking about the "breaking point" being (generally) 200 > 240 days in combat, under fire. Me? I passed 500 days... and that was not so unusual. What got us past that point? The same thing that you refer to as "brainwashing"... simple discipline, so that when the mind could/would endure no more, you continued to carry on and get your job done.
So much easier to stand aside and jeer, than to toe the line and get the job done, with the world looking over your shoulder, anxiously waiting for the opportunity to damn you for what they could not find within themselves to do in your place, isn't it?
As for reverse's and Greenhat's experience? Not my place to betray their trust; they might say something if they thing you deserving of the response. Do I think you are "deserving"? Not even to launder their skidmarks...
And to Uncle Joe ~ there is no "glory" to war; there is only the getting the job done that so many like you have not the gonadal requisites to stand up and endure. Those of us who have been there? Remember what we would like to forget. But... we also know that there are moments when one must toe that line, and do what must be done, when it must be done, as it must be done. And that? Unfortunately... Provides the sanctuary for parasites (like you) to exist and flourish...
Funny... you and reverse are so much more verbose than Greenhat, yet you both have so much less to say
Um... I know what you are, but what am I?
That you say I am an apologist for ALL Palestinian acts is simply unbelievable. I don't know if you suffer from selective memory or choose to ignore certain posts or comments. I have said a million times that Palestinian bombers are terrorist scum who should be hunted down. Which is more than can be said of you and a few others who have consistently avoided answering a simple question about Israeli acts.
I'm just trying to establish who I should or should not spend time debating with. That Israeli abuses have happened and continue happening is fact not even the most blinded bigot could deny. The question is whether you condemn it, or you think there is nothing wrong with SOME of the Israeli government and army's actions, and that the Palestinians deserve all that's coming to them? Because as far as I'm concerned anyone who thinks the latter is a radical, ultra right wing zionist fanatic and it would be a waste of time to try to debate or reason with such person.
So, one more time (god I must have asked this a hundred times now). There have been confirmed cases of Israeli soldiers shooting at unarmed civilians or at ambulance crews, ripping vines, subjecting the Palestinian population to abuse and humiliation. Do you and the others condemn this, or no? Please don’t give me any 'yes but' or ‘what about the Palestinians'. A simple ‘Yes’ or ‘no’ please.
Aladdin,
Who said you were an apologist, you're biased.
Soldiers accept the harsh facts of life of war.
Collateral damage, caused by shot after damage, shrapnel, to when the enemy hides in populated areas, civilians die.
Soldiers also know after a maniac bombs Brit civilian areas, there will be paybacks..
Soldiers do not accept the deliberate and continued targeting of noncombats. That is a war crime.
"There have been confirmed cases"
Like Jenin was confirmed?
This was confirmed by the Red Cross and other humanitarian organisations as well as independent, impartial reporters from around the world who were present.
So yes or no?
I suggest you reevaluate your sources. There are no first-party international sources making those claims. All the First-party sources are Palestinian. All the international sources are third-party, meaning they did not actually witness anything, and were not present. Their claims are made based on collection of reports, physical evidence and circumstantial evidence. As a simple example, just because a person is female, doesn't automatically make them a non-combatant. Neither does age.
We don't know what actually happened in Jenin. We definitely don't know who was being shot at and how other people were shot.
Nobody likes to see innocent civilians killed. But just because civilians die, I don't assume that some atrocity has taken place.
Said that "a million times", have you? In 839 posts. Hmm... haven't actually noticed you saying that over 1,000 times in each post. Perhaps we should set up a cyber chalk board somewheres and let you have at... :rolleyes:
More likely, it is simply another of your gross exagerations...
Perhaps your prevarication can be read as an answer, in that you believe it to be acceptable to kill children.
Good advice. Some like to assume the worst without having all the facts straight. Usually with extreme bias.
Thanks to the people who answered my question before.
And to the real world educated amoung us for all your imput and insights. Also the people who have opinions so we can keep the discussion going. I believe that more comes out with you all along for the ride.
I believe that unless youve seen these things transpire with your own eyes you have to keep an open mind.
Its easy to pursuade a impoverished young person that blowin themselves up in a village square is a "good idea" if you have enough pressure on them and their families.
As a newbie to trying to make sense of the whole situation of people blowin themselves and others to bits to get their views accross, my summation is this...so far.
The dictators in the middle east keep this fueled and keep the focus of their own subjects/citizens upon it so the focus stays off of their own situations. ie being the subjects of a dictatorship or monarchy. FEW of the mid east leaders with the exception of Israel would like to see the suicide/homicide bombings to cease. IMO, Also I believe that people are making a great deal of money to keep this situation escalating. The parents of the children blowing themselves up, arafat......Im sure the list goes on and on.
Thats my uneducated simplistic overview. Please feel free to Correct any of my assumptions as needed.
It's quite simple really. Due to the whole situation being so close to me, I can't answer Aladdins question in this specific case without a but. Cause there are indeed buts.
Cause when I face a situation where they either kill me with their rocks, or that the soldiers shoots them and protect me, then I think that you all know which option I would choose. And it wouldn't surprise me, that people who actually stood in that situation, as idealistic as they are now, wouldn't go against the soldiers protecting them.
How do you intelligently debate a perspective based in distortion, lies, and exaggeration, not to mention ignorance? :rolleyes:
To call it what it is, is to "prevaricate", to "lie"? :rolleyes:
A little distorted, don't you think?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THIS is the perspective from which those of us on the "other side" of the discussion speak, those who hate war and combat, but have been sought by the moment that demanded of us what we hate. Ever hear the expression, "Cannot see the forest for the trees"? Has much to do with the blindness in certain quarters...
Let me put it in really simple terms Thanatos. To suggest that Israeli human right abuses and killing of unarmed civilians has not happened is equivalent to suggesting the Holocaust didn't happen either. Not in the number of people murdered of course, but on the evidence available. It's that simple.
In the same way that Nazi apologists have written 500-page books denying the whole thing, claiming only a few hundred thousand were killed or that the gas chambers were just showers, there are obviously many bigoted fanatics who seem to deny the government of Israel has done any wrong over the last three decades (and specially during the last few years). Either you are one of those, or live in an area where the reporting from the Middle East is so biased and selective you actually are not aware of any such incidents taking place.
Which category do you fall into?
And as usual, we are again diverting from the original question. It is a very simple question, so quit changing the subject. Is it a Yes or a No?
Point is, just what facts are you referring to?
You keep going on and on about this or that, but all I read are opinions, yours.
In the first 5 posts the facts are posted, compete with date, location, method, number killed or wounded and many state which terrorist organization claimed responsibility.
In case you are unfamilar with what I am asking, here are a few examples.
Those are facts, presented in a factual, concise fashion. So to borrow your words, "Let me put it in really simple terms," you have yet to post fact number one.
But...
Aladdin finds it much more convenient to post innuendo, and from "common knowledge". Wouldn't want to make it inconvenient for him, would you? :eek:
The question is foolish and shows no understanding of reality. Maybe such a question can actually be considered in the Spanish or the British services. I hope not.
In the American services, warcrimes and actions such as have been suggested here have been self-policed and the participants have found themselves prosecuted. Such actions have been extremely rare in American forces.
The question is in the same vein as "What would you do if you found yourself able to breath in the vacuum of deep space?" and has just about as much meaning.
Nor are we fool enough to think that the military world is a black and white one. The reality is that people sometimes react in ways they shouldn't. It is the duty of the man serving beside them to control that reaction before it endangers the entire unit.
So, let's look at Aladdin's idiocy. That rarity happens. A commanding officer orders an atrocity. In the American forces, someone, probably his XO or senior NCO, will take him aside and calm him down and ask if that is really what he wants to order... he won't, of course. No need to mutiny. No need to walk away from your brothers. No need at all.
Of course, Aladdin continues to claim that atrocities are ordered. Has anyone seen reports of such orders?