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Have you been there? Done that? Ever had stones thrown at you? How about being shot at and stoned at the same time (the reality in Israel, not just stoning)?
I'll make you a simple deal. We'll put you in a place where you cannot retreat and you cannot hide. We'll give you a helmet and a "flak vest". Then we'll get a bunch of kids to throw rocks at you and a couple of hidden adults to shoot at you. If you are killed, well, sorry about that. We'll also videotape your reactions. If you can angry or react, we'll vilify you to the world. Afterwards, if you survive, maybe you can tell us how you felt.
OK, just a scientific experiment. How about it?
Lovely suggestion.
Too bad the vox person will not put his life behind his words. Much easier and safer to stand at the side and jeer than to toe the line... But then, that is always the way, isn't it?
Save for Bloody Sunday, the British forces faced just that in Ireland, and yet rarely used live rounds in return...
Certainly few deaths were caused, and certainly these volleys were never aimed at under 11 year old children.
KINGDOM OF ISRAEL
MEMO TO ALL GROUND OPERATIONS PERSONNEL
It has come to our attention that some soldiers patrolling Muslim-occupied areas are regularly coming under attack from a new breed of terrorists. These terrorists are young, determined and very small, which allows them to hide in the most unsuspected places and set up deadly ambushes. Their weapon of choice is a most terrible and feared one: the stone.
These stones typically weigh between 400 and 800 grams if hand-launched, or smaller but deadlier sling-propelled 200 grams projectiles. Being hit by a stone can result in an ugly cut to the head, bumps, bruises and other nasty and painful injuries. We are also concerned by the damage inflicted to our equipment: last month alone the cost of re-spraying our Jeeps and armoured vehicles was of 55,000 Shekels. In this Memo we will explore ways of protect yourselves and efficiently repel attacks.
First of all, prevention. We must deprive the enemy of these weapons before they can use them. Many of the projectiles come from the rubble of the demolished houses of the enemy. From now on, special care must be taken by the tank operators and bulldozing teams to roll over every house we take down several times to ensure no big chunks are left for the enemy to use.
But if the enemy has already procured themselves with an array of rocks, there are several evasive maneuvers and countermeasures you can take.
1. Get behind a tank or armoured vehicle. They are very tough and can withstand many impacts with only superficial damage. If the rocks start to rain down you should get inside the vehicle to avoid injury. However, the vehicle should be moved to a safer area after a short time because of the damage to the paintwork described above.
2. Do not stand in the middle of the street. There are still a few Muslim houses standing- use them to hide from view. The terrorists typically position themselves opposite us in the middle of the street to launch their attack. If they are unwilling to move get behind a house and wait.
3. Disperse the crowd. Our American friends and the anti-semite Europeans have been using crowd dispersal equipment very successfully for some time now. We are aware we have never adopted such tactics here, preferring the more efficient method of shooting the enemy dead. But this apparently is causing furore in Nazi Europe (no surprise there) and to a lesser extent in America. So from next month we will commence training with tank-mounted water cannons, rubber bullets and tear gas canisters.
We know some of you would prefer to continue the tried and tested ‘shoot them up’ method. But these are difficult times and we must work together with our American friends on this one. Until the new equipment and operational procedure is introduced, watch out for those rocks and duck!
MEMO OVER
Not quite true...
Generally, British troops in N.I. did have the option of moving/hiding (sources: one ex-Royal Marine with two tours of Northern Ireland, one ex-SAS trooper with multiple tours of Ireland). Also, stones and bullets were rarely mixed (probably because the Irish value their children as more than a way to get attention). The Royal Marine I mentioned came under fire a total of 4 times in Northern Ireland. He had molotavs dropped on his vehicle twice (and wears a nasty scar as the result of one), and had stones thrown at him dozens of times (generally one or two thrown and the kids would run). One of the molotov incidents was also a shots fired incident. None of the stone throwings had shots fired.
I doubt that the Israelis are aiming at under 11 children, more likely is that they are attempting to bring suppressive fire on those who fire at them (aimed small-arms fire is not a particularly common military skill, the American forces, and to a lesser extent UK forces are the few militaries that put value in it outside of specialist roles).
Not incapable of, generally under orders which don't allow them to...
Actually, it would be "tactical madness", and you have made my point.
Well I must retract all my previous comments. Under those circumstances it is completely justified killing children. Please carry on, men and women of the Israeli army.
:rolleyes:
Maybe you would prefer to be the subject of our experiment?
And even if I didn’t have the courage to stand up to my officer, I would rather break orders and run for cover or retreat than murder a child who is threatening to throw a rock at me and give me a bruised cheek.
This, incidentally, has already happened with a rapidly increasing number of Israeli reservists and even active soldiers disgusted at the continuing slaughter.
You are again trying to justify the unjustifiable. Firing at children throwing stones is murder. There are no ‘ifs’ or ‘buts’ about it.
I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm pointing out the reality that those soldiers face everyday, and the fact that you don't understand it.
What you would really do is shit yourself.
ROTFLMFAO!!!
Fairly obvious that Aladdin has never served in a military, and has absolutely NO IDEA of what that entails, isn't it? :rolleyes:
And to do that, Greenhat, a lot of balls and courage are requested. Quite the opposite of shitting oneself. It's all too easy to go out there with the full backing of the army and an assault rifle, start shooting kids and make yourself believe that you have no option but to fire at them anyway because you've been ordered to do so.
I thought you guys took pride in being 'thinking' soldiers and able to evaluate situations. If your officer in Nam had asked you and your platoon to ‘cleanse’ a village of farmers in North Vietnam, would you carry those orders?
Infantry?
Or clerk?
I've heard claims like you have made from all sorts. Everyone of them failed to follow through. All talk, no walk. No balls.
Those who will act with honor and integrity don't talk about it in a negative manner. Those who have served and understand duty don't talk about disobeying orders. They may need to at some point, they may have at some point...but they don't talk about it. Not in the manner you have.
All talk, no walk. I find it difficult to believe you have served, and impossible to believe you have served in a place where the brotherhood of survival exists. You would walk away from your comrades? Turn your back on them and your duty to protect them?
Referring to the "Jenin Massacre"? :rolleyes:
Aladdin, I havn't been in the military myself yet.
Though, even I can see that you have some theories which look damn smart in theory, but in praksis... Don't even go there.
I would like to see a soldier telling his commander to stick a gun up his ass...
Aladdin, there are other ways to refuse. But there are 'ways' to do so.
Steel on target...
Would you prefer a HOO-AHH!, perhaps?
GET IN
HAVE IT
OK... I was not going to respond to this particular bit of ignorance... but... what with Toadborg's comment...
While there WAS the occaisional incursion by SF into NVn, the regular military ground forces of the US remained SOUTH of the DMZ.
Has your history been revised that far from reality??? Or just getting inventive to hopefully score an imaginary point?
Is he not allowed to make a simple mistake? Greenshat, a while back, vehemently argued that Iraq was not an Arab country, over several posts, until he realised that he was guilty of a ridiculous error.
Grow up.
So speaks the schoolboy.
And exactly where did you earn your stripes, so as to be in position to utter a "grow up"?
Is that an example of your "grown up" behavior? :rolleyes:
Oh! I see! That's how I am supposed to reply.
*remembers for future spelling/grammar mistakes, which might occur*
Good question about what would I do IF some one had said cleanse a Vietnamese village.. Beats me, cuz it never happened...
But we do see to be quite capable of ignoring palestinians blowing up innocent men women and children.. Atleast the palestinians get to throw rocks and make the decision to throw a rock..
Not so the other way around.. Just BOOM in the pizza palor, BOOM in the market, BOOM in the school..
But that seems to be ignored as we ask what IF you were asked to cleanse a Vn village.
Goes to perspective... some deal in the theoretical, and some in reality. Some can only deal with the theoretical, and some have survived the reality.
Not real difficult to figure out which is which, now is it?
Thought you were MIA... the hopes of so many have probably been dashed upon the rocks. :eek:
lmao!