Home Politics & Debate

London riots

124

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it is a case of yes the police have made mistakes in the past, and some forces have a habit of doing so. Yet they are in a catch 22 situation, they cant do the right thing, they are either accused of doing nothing, or accused of being too heavy handed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Come back, phone hacking, all is forgiven?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shikari wrote: »
    Your opinions on this? I think this is a fair bit true.

    Load of bollocks if you ask me.

    The problem's not a lack of discipline, it is how that discipline is meted out. Schools will expel rather than deal with problem students. The problem is not dealt with, it is just excluded, swept under the carpet. You can only sweep things under the carpet for so long. There's nothing wrong with taking kids out of mainstream education if they can't or won't behave, but you have to give them something to replace it and we don't. Rehabilitation is seen as "soft on crime" when, if anything, it's the exact opposite.

    We need to make prison worthwhile again, we need to train offenders to give them the skills to live in society. Our prisons have a revolving door because prisoners aren't given a chance to overcome their problems.

    G-Raffe, the real problem is that the Metropolitan Police will kettle students and beat the shit out of peaceful protesters in Fortnum and Mason but then when you get proper violence they're nowhere to be seen. They're big and hard when they're beating the shit out of a kid in a wheelchair but when some little scrote has a Molotov cocktail they vanish into thin air. That's what people are upset about.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru

    It starts strong, offering the pretence of taking a non polarised look at the situation, but, as you'd expect with The Guardian, eventually falls off into its standard "they were given the wrong type of hugs" liberalism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe, the real problem is that the Metropolitan Police will kettle students and beat the shit out of peaceful protesters in Fortnum and Mason but then when you get proper violence they're nowhere to be seen. They're big and hard when they're beating the shit out of a kid in a wheelchair but when some little scrote has a Molotov cocktail they vanish into thin air. That's what people are upset about.
    I agree, but i think most of the police are as pissed off with the government as anyone, with the huge cuts to the policeforce, it wouldnt surprise me if a lot of them wanted to show how much trouble can get out of hand without a good police presence
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I see footage of police brutality has made it to the news. This is the reason that the police need to stay controlled. Despite just doing their job, its so easy for people to get the wrong idea when you're swinging a batton around.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    IMO the police needed to use some sort of force, ideally before the riots kicked off. Rubber bullets, water, whatever will give people the message without fatalities. If you are going to riot and loot and screw peoples businesses and lives up, I don't think it is fair the police do sod all incase they get sued (I'm not moaning at the police, I'm moaning at the people that tell the police what they can and can't do). At the moment its a case of the police being damned if they do something, damned if they don't.

    What we need is the fear of police to be installed again, so that when the police turn up they can deal with people effectively. If an American cop orders you to do something, chances are you would or you'll get shot. Here the attitude , IMO, is "what can the police do without permission from the higher powers... nothing. Therefore are there any immediate repercussions of me looting. No. Well they I shall"

    This country is screwed in terms of policing. Cut back paper work and allow common sense again. That may do the trick.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The thing with using water/rubber bullets is their primary use is to split up groups, to disperse a situation. The problem with the riots now is that they're splitting up too fast so they are going to be ineffective. Rubber bullets are a bad idea because they can cause a fatality.

    I agree the police need to be more active and have less paper work, but welcome to the politically correct world where you can't say something out of tune, everything needs to be written down in case of legal threats. It's sad and there isn't really much we can do to stop it without changing all of society. I really don't want to have an American attitude to policing here in the UK. That is not the solution, it would cause friction. It started from the police shooting somebody, would that help if more police had guns right now? What about in a few months if the same policy was in force to keep problematic areas calm, and it made people feel more caged in and feel like they're in a more severe police state?

    There's a hard line between the right solution. We can't go in with rubber bullets, water cannons, mounted horses, extreme riot gear, because you would start to see the same kind of behavior with peaceful protests. You only have to look back a few months to years to see the effects when the rules are changed - even if they're promised to be a temporary solution, I don't trust those decisions anymore.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree, but i think most of the police are as pissed off with the government as anyone, with the huge cuts to the policeforce, it wouldnt surprise me if a lot of them wanted to show how much trouble can get out of hand without a good police presence

    I said something like that the other day on Twitter and was told that I was being too cynical ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I said something like that the other day on Twitter and was told that I was being too cynical ;)

    As the police are responsible for the costs of the riots it probably wouldn't be in there best interests to stoke them or not deal prompty
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It was said tongue in cheek...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    cameron-looters.jpg
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have a look in this thread **helen** created incase you might be interested.

    http://vbulletin.thesite.org/showthread.php/148575-Not-in-our-name-London-tomorrow
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My response to the petition demanding that people found guilty of crimes during these riots and looting, which asks for their benefits to be withdrawn and withheld for the future; I would be keener to sign up to such a petition if a punishment such as this were rolled out to all involved in stealing, shafting the general populace etc. ie. politicians first.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It is ok guys, I've got the situation covered.

    http://www.youthnet.org/2011/08/close-encounter-of-the-cameron-kind/
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree, but i think most of the police are as pissed off with the government as anyone, with the huge cuts to the policeforce, it wouldnt surprise me if a lot of them wanted to show how much trouble can get out of hand without a good police presence

    Ooh you cynic you!

    FWIW you're right...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Also, everybody looking for or giving one answer for the riots will be wrong, the answers may overlap, as do the communities affected and blah blah blah. There is no master answer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Also, everybody looking for or giving one answer for the riots will be wrong, the answers may overlap, as do the communities affected and blah blah blah. There is no master answer.

    This is the crux of the matter as I see it. Left and right have immediately reached for their cookie cutter explanations and have made gaining proper insight largely impossible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is the crux of the matter as I see it. Left and right have immediately reached for their cookie cutter explanations and have made gaining proper insight largely impossible.
    I feel like this too...

    I have seen so many people on the right lament when they could beat the fear of God in to children... Many people on the left, often people with no shared experience of living on a council estate are struck with class guilt. Many trots and other lefties are talking about how the cuts are hurting the youth...

    Yet there are adults involved too... At first, it was a 'black problem'... Then it's a 'youth problem'... Then we see all kinda people arrested, from various class backgrounds, racial and age groups.

    If you ask for an explanation or try to debate it, you get accused of either siding with the rioters and something something Africa, or not listening to the working class... My experiences anyway.

    This is way more complex than just one thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Agreed. It was different for some people than others. Some were in gangs (and i heard them talking to each other about where the night's target should be.. and then all getting on trains and buses to Croydon), others got swept up in the excitement and criminality, and stole even though they were wearing better shoes and clothes than they were nicking, some were politically motivated or anti-Police, some genuinely motovated by greed, some were down and out racist. Some just bored. The list goes on.

    I just thank god that my two sons weren't involved, and were as surprised and shocked by it all as most of us were.

    ps.. I have to say that I thought the brixton riots were worse (1981 I think) Just so much more burning and violence. I was on the periphery of that (as a bystander) and I thought the whole of London would go up in flames!)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    chou4555 wrote: »
    ps.. I have to say that I thought the brixton riots were worse (1981 I think) Just so much more burning and violence. I was on the periphery of that (as a bystander) and I thought the whole of London would go up in flames!)

    Yeah but that, along with Broadwater & Toxteth, were proper politically motivated riots. This was just mass larceny. Kids these days have no style.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are now two blog entries that I have written regarding this week. The added incentive is that after you have read them, you will get to know what I look like!

    http://www.youthnet.org/2011/08/i-didnt-predict-a-riot/
    http://www.youthnet.org/2011/08/close-encounter-of-the-cameron-kind/
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    cute
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That the blogs or me :P
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Since when have you helped moderate the boards??? Bloody usurper. :P
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    For anybody around Lambeth, who's interested in the riots and how we can help young people, there's an event on Thursday in the Karibu centre with a street party in Windrush Square afterwards!

    defend-communities-leaflet.png?w=566&h=843
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the above is a really good idea, anyone in the area should get along to it if they can.

    Though call me cynical if you must; I'm a little perturbed that it is being hosted by unison and RMT? If it is an event in which these unions are trying to protect services their members work within then that is fine. What makes me a little uneasy is that some might view this as the unions trying to politicise these events.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    I think the above is a really good idea, anyone in the area should get along to it if they can.

    Though call me cynical if you must; I'm a little perturbed that it is being hosted by unison and RMT? If it is an event in which these unions are trying to protect services their members work within then that is fine. What makes me a little uneasy is that some might view this as the unions trying to politicise these events.
    Well basically, it was partly hosted by Lambeth Trade Union council, hence the unions have their name on the flyers. Also, unions and trade union councils sometimes sponsor or support campaigns (for example, the Campaign Against Climate Change) and then feed this back in to their own campaign ideas and work.

    There weren't actually many union speakers... Or the speakers ma have been in unions, but it wasn't dominant. For example, one guy who is a Unison member and whose union is invplved in a campaign against closures of child services was speaking... But you also had activists, community members, members of political parties... It essentially had no real bias to it.

    My only concern is that it will just be left as a talking shop... We shall have to see.
Sign In or Register to comment.