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London riots

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14435251
BBC wrote:
More than 40 people have been arrested after rioting saw police attacked and buildings and vehicles set alight in Tottenham, north London.

Overnight, 26 officers and three others were hurt in the violence which erupted after a protest over the fatal shooting by police of Mark Duggan on Thursday.

Shops, cash machines and homes were looted.

Tottenham MP David Lammy said: "A community that was already hurting has had its heart ripped out."

The Metropolitan Police said two officers were still in hospital and three members of the public had been injured. More than 40 people remain in custody.

Police said there were still "pockets of criminality" in the area on Sunday morning.

London Fire Brigade said crews were dampening down the scene of some fires.

A spokesman said all the fires were under control "at the moment".

On Sunday morning, police were manning a cordon around the scene of the violence, while residents surveyed the damage to their community.

Widely condemned as disgraceful by many; this started off as a peaceful protest at the death of a man who was shot a short while ago. Although a police officer was shot in the same incident. I understand people want answers, but as the news article correctly suggests, investigations are not instantaneous (if they were, they wouldn't have any credibility).

People have been left homeless because of this, it is yet another example of criminal elements/yobs or whatever you want to call them, hijacking as I said what was a peaceful action. People always seem to have a go at the police because someone somewhere will always view police actions as wrong, however I think the greater issue at hand is the people within that Tottenham community that think they are above the law or dont care.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It all started, allegedly, with a sixteen year old woman who approached the police line asking for answers, then was set upon by armed men and women.

    If you look at the history of the area, there has been a lot of racist police behaviour and harassment. The death of Mark Duggan only adds to the (disproportionate) list of black and Asian men killed following contact with the police.

    Riots are never single issue and they are never solely mindless thugs. It is likely that people joined in for various reasons, but mostly had nothing to lose. The area has 48% child poverty, it's in the top ten most deprived areas in the UK.

    Maybe people are looking for other ways to be heard, seeing as petitions, demonstrations, other methods haven't worked for areas like Tottenham... Fuck it, for the UK.

    Life ain't so black and white as "thugs" thinking they're "above the law" kiddo.

    Note: My complete laziness to write a lot and provide links 'n' shit to back up some issues in the area and the UK regarding police racism... Internet is slow as hell today.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it is simpler than you say, yes it is a deprived area; however when one person starts kicking off and trying to cause trouble/damage and a lot of other people decide to jump on the bandwagon, what has it achieved?

    It has made people homeless, damaged peoples incomes and businesses (I dont mean the big chains either), and generally made the area worse. If those that were rioting really thought the area was that much of a shit hole, why have they gone and made it worse.

    Rioting supposedly caused by police action? Yet most of the destruction was caused by and effected people who were not the police. Yes I admit there has been bad policing in the area in the past, but the area will never improve if people try and justify frankly disgusting behaviour by using the police as an excuse for everything. I'm not saying that bad policing behaviour in the UK is ever acceptable, but like i said you cant use the past as a constant excuse. If this had happened in Syria then the riotots would all be dead due to being shot by the police.

    I believe that the trouble was caused by an effective minority within the community, as bad as things get; do people really think that these kinda of actions do anything other than make the perpetrators look like complete dickheads?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not doubting that it has contributed towards making things harder for people. Those who used their local Jobcentre for example, may have to travel further to sign on. This is money some people don't have and if they're disabled, can lead to further complications.

    I just know it's naive to assume things are as black and white as a lot of people are assuming, or that people are rioting over nothing, or of the death of yet another black person who came in to contact with the police (gee whiz, those boys have quite a collection now eh).

    You can't blame people in the area for bad policing. Even only last year there were accusations against the police for racism, where in some areas, black people were up to ten times more likely to be stopped and searched. It isn't because black people commit more crimes, or because poor people should take more responsibility not to let themselves or their neighbours be criminals, it is a different issue altogether.

    Police officers have as much control over their own actions as people on the street. We've already seen them beat the shit out of students, we know of people like Sean Rigg who was vulnerable and died in custody with no questions answered, the list could go on.

    This isn't because of the behaviour of people on the streets, it's because of how people abuse the power given to them.

    With every riot we've had in the UK, it has never been so simple as people kicking off. Granted, gangs take advantage, some people will use it as an excuse to rob their neighbours, but a lot of people are just fed up. They're possibly fed up of not being listened to, or being targets by the police, or maybe they were friends or family of somebody who has been persecuted, maybe they have nothing to lose, maybe they are so damn desperate and know full well that they won't improve their living conditions by petitions or peaceful protest and that the cuts are biting and hurting people like them most.

    So what else are people to do? Lie down and take it?

    And no, I don't think that the people will be portrayed as dickheads. Soon there will no doubt be a bunch of sympathy stories in the Guardian and bullshit stories in the Mail. Nobody will know what happened apart from the people who were there and nobody will know the reality that individuals who are brought up on estates in places like Tottenham go through, without being there.

    This won't be the last riot this city is going to see... Living conditions are going to get a lot worse.

    I'm not siding with the riots, but if I thought a copper had shot my friend whilst on the floor (as one witness statement from Mark Duggan's murder suggests), or if I saw police go for a school girl who quite frankly, is asking questions she and the community are entitled to know, I'd be pretty livid too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What confuses me about the whole situation is that not all police are armed, so did something happen for the armed police to be called? Was there not a police radio found with a round (bullet) embedded in it?

    What really annoys me is the age old, you never hear anything about the police unless its bad news. Of all the good policing that goes on, as much as bad stuff does happen (and i know it does) does that mean that every police man is the same?

    Theres also a difference between being pretty livid about your friend being shot, and making your community more of an alledged shit hole than it already is by burning it down.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    What confuses me about the whole situation is that not all police are armed, so did something happen for the armed police to be called? Was there not a police radio found with a round (bullet) embedded in it?

    What really annoys me is the age old, you never hear anything about the police unless its bad news. Of all the good policing that goes on, as much as bad stuff does happen (and i know it does) does that mean that every police man is the same?

    Theres also a difference between being pretty livid about your friend being shot, and making your community more of an alledged shit hole than it already is by burning it down.

    From what I understand it was a 'pre-planned operation' (though why a pre-planned op should involve stopping a minicab unless they were after the driver as well), so the armed police were there.

    All we know is that three shots were fired, two of which hit Duggan and one hit a police radio (and one assumes the policeman that was attached to that radio was the one hospitalised).

    But yeah Namaste has things the wrong way round, it wasn't poverty that caused the riots but riots that cause the violence - what business is going to locate in Tottenham (and employ people) if they fear the areas a no-go zone.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    What confuses me about the whole situation is that not all police are armed, so did something happen for the armed police to be called? Was there not a police radio found with a round (bullet) embedded in it?

    What really annoys me is the age old, you never hear anything about the police unless its bad news. Of all the good policing that goes on, as much as bad stuff does happen (and i know it does) does that mean that every police man is the same?

    Theres also a difference between being pretty livid about your friend being shot, and making your community more of an alledged shit hole than it already is by burning it down.
    Sorry... By armed, I mean holding a police baton and shield (weapons). I don't mean they have to have a gun. What started the riots seemed to be that a police officer(s) beat a young women who could not defend herself.
    What really annoys me is the age old, you never hear anything about the police unless its bad news. Of all the good policing that goes on, as much as bad stuff does happen (and i know it does) does that mean that every police man is the same?
    Because bad news sells papers. Nobody is denying there are nice cops, but there are a lot of allegations of police violence and racism. It would be the same with any department anyway. The individuals will only be in the paper if they do something amazing, or crappy... You don't get a pat on the back for doing what you're paid to do.
    Theres also a difference between being pretty livid about your friend being shot, and making your community more of an alledged shit hole than it already is by burning it down.
    Nono... I am not saying I agree with burning Jobcentres and supermarkets, I just don't think that situations are so black and white and I feel that riots come from frustration and people not having a voice. Individuals are responsible for their own actions after all and there's no need to fuck up community resources, but at the end of the day, it's hardly surprising.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But yeah Namaste has things the wrong way round, it wasn't poverty that caused the riots but riots that cause the violence - what business is going to locate in Tottenham (and employ people) if they fear the areas a no-go zone.
    So what do you think caused the riots then?

    Are you saying that poverty has nothing to do with riots in places such as Tottenham and in previous riots London has seen?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The poverty isn't caused by by an uncaring Government, its caused by business being unwilling/unable to set up there and one of the reasons is that part of Tottenham (and next door Walthamstow where I live) are becoming a no-go area for police and business wants to be protected (as an aside I saw some research work in one of the poorest areas of Tees Valley a few years back and the biggest reason for the closure of local businesses was crime, real and percieved, even more than high taxation (which was the second biggest reason for closure)

    But yes the riot wasn't caused by poverty (whatever that is), but by bored young men, rumours, drink, rioting being fun, peer pressure and that once it a few things start it becomes virtually impossible to stop until everyone goes home.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    People chose to be involved in this violence, unfortunately I'm sure there were many people who got caught up in the mob mentality.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    So what do you think caused the riots then?

    An armed twat shooting a cop and getting shot in return and all his gangsta wannabe mates not liking it.

    A criminal dies on the streets and innocent people suffer.

    The riot wasn't a show of disaffection or boredom. It was an opportunity for a load of dickheads to go on a rampage. Or how else do you explain a carpet shop and a double decker bus being torched? Hardly symbols of the Capitalist oppressor.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    An armed twat shooting a cop and getting shot in return and all his gangsta wannabe mates not liking it.

    A criminal dies on the streets and innocent people suffer.

    The riot wasn't a show of disaffection or boredom. It was an opportunity for a load of dickheads to go on a rampage. Or how else do you explain a carpet shop and a double decker bus being torched? Hardly symbols of the Capitalist oppressor.

    Or possibly the copper was shot by another copper. It's all still unclear what exactly happened....
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,169 Skive's The Limit
    We hear and see far more of good policing than we do of bad policing. The news is full of criminals being caught and crimes being solved. The police arnt celebrated for each and every crime solved because its their bloody job. I expect them to do their job.

    bad policing when it occurs is very big news and so it should be. You get bad people in life and in all lines of work, but very few of them have the same responsibility. the very nature of the job attracts a disproportionate amount of egotistical wankers and that's understandable but it means there should be serious consequences for those that do behave badly. I have first hand experience of the police acting like cunt and making a complaint us not an easy thing to do.. Look at the amount of people who've died in police custody over the years, and then look how many times a the police have been held to account.

    in no way am I defending the looting and rioting, but I'm fully in support of anybody who wishes to make a peaceful protest. Unfortunately the police are often as guilty as protesters in escalating the violence.

    I wouldn't trust the results of any inquiry anyway.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nothing resolves police brutality quicker than a looted flatscreen TV.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Assuming the shooting was lawful, which in our parliamentary democracy I think we should assume; shouldn't the police release an official explanation to address the grievances that lead to the initial protest and separate legitimate protest from opportunistic criminality?

    I think the police are publicly refuting the prominent justifications of rioting, I'm glad they're stating clearly than rioting is an opportunistic crime and not an alternative form of protest.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Assuming the shooting was lawful, which in our parliamentary democracy I think we should assume; shouldn't the police release an official explanation to address the grievances that lead to the initial protest and separate legitimate protest from opportunistic criminality?


    They already have done. They attempted to arrest a suspect. The suspect shot a cop, the suspect got shot in return. Unfortunately in things like this it's always the police who suffer because they're not legally allowed to comment until after the enquiry e.t.c. All they ever do is drip feed information, it's always hurried and doesn't really answer any questions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nothing resolves police brutality quicker than a looted flatscreen TV.

    When I heard my library was closing, I was straight down the Currys stock room.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,169 Skive's The Limit
    Assuming the shooting was lawful, which in our parliamentary democracy I think we should assume

    I think that a very dangerous attitude. You know what they say about assumptions?

    Worth looking up the names of Jean Charles de Menezes, Harry Stanley, James Ashley, and David Ewin?

    All police shootings. All were unlawful and nobody was held to account. This idea that everything the police do was probably the correct thing to do just allows them to get away with bad policing and in some instances murder.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    An armed twat shooting a cop and getting shot in return and all his gangsta wannabe mates not liking it.

    A criminal dies on the streets and innocent people suffer.
    Nice to see somebody paid by my our money to enforce law and order, keeping an open mind on an event when there is so much conflicting evidence.

    Maybe you should keep an open mind before the reports come back. Some witnesses are saying that the man was shot at point blank and the bullet that hit the cop may have bounced. Some reports are coming back that the gun was not even fired by the victim. I am not denying the man may have been shot in self-defence, but that there are people who are killed by the police who are innocent (and before anybody says police are damned if they do and damned if they don't, imagine if that was your brother or child).

    Yes, I think that a lot of people who were rioting are thugs, but then so are a lot of police and those creatures initiating the cuts which are further destroying some of London's poorest communities. I have seen police officers be violent towards unarmed people in the past, I have seen two officers try to intimidate a pensioner at a demonstration and I have reliable sources of friends who have been beaten by officers. The whole world ain't black and white. Knuckle-draggers are everywhere and it seems that certain occupations and situations attract 'em like flies.

    But yes, I do think the riots had a lot of opportunists. I do think that poverty, crappy living conditions and high unemployment are likely in issue too, along with police behaviour. It's not a case of businesses not investing in the community after these riots because people can travel (though the burnt out jobcentre will affect some harder to reach people), unlike say if it were a remote place up north. I don't agree with it.

    All I think it wait an' see what comes out of this and listen to the ordinary people of Tottenham's stories, not those of the police.

    I have actually heard on another message board that it is spreading... Anybody got any news from their area?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nothing resolves police brutality quicker than a looted flatscreen TV.
    When I heard my library was closing, I was straight down the Currys stock room.

    Exactly this.

    And breaking into people's homes: truly disgusting. I'll be interested to hear how being a disaffected youth is used to justify that one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Although i don't agree with mindless violence and vandalism, i'm a strong believer that peaceful protest solves nothing.

    If done for the right reason and directed corectly, violence is necasary and has had its place in shaping our way of life for hundreds of years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just as a passing tangent, should people have the want/need to complain about the police, then thesite does have a fact sheet of stuff for that kind of thing.

    http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmoney/law/introuble/complainaboutpolice
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All complaining about the police does is guarantee that you'll be stopped by PC Plod every time you leave the sodding house. A chocolate fireguard would protect you more than the IPCC.

    As for what started the riots this time, it's the usual combination of hot weather, frayed tempers, police victimisation, rumour, half-truth and good old-fashioned opportunism. The Met have made it sound like a scrote who deserved to get shot getting shot, but they said that about de Menezes too and they lied then.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    Nice to see somebody paid by my our money to enforce law and order, keeping an open mind on an event when there is so much conflicting evidence.

    Maybe you should keep an open mind before the reports come back. Some witnesses are saying that the man was shot at point blank and the bullet that hit the cop may have bounced. Some reports are coming back that the gun was not even fired by the victim. I am not denying the man may have been shot in self-defence, but that there are people who are killed by the police who are innocent (and before anybody says police are damned if they do and damned if they don't, imagine if that was your brother or child).




    I pretty much agree with everything you said, ultimately the death of one man is being overshadowed by the complete twatitude of everyone else. But the above made me situp. The bullet bounced? Off what, his spine?

    In deference, I'll withold my judgment about the man and like you, wait and see what the result of the enquiry is. I won't have any sympathy however if he really was in posession of a gun, and even less if the reports that he attempted to murder a cop are accurate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dunno what people think poverty does if not lead to shit like this?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I'm not siding with the riots, but if I thought a copper had shot my friend whilst on the floor (as one witness statement from Mark Duggan's murder suggests), or if I saw police go for a school girl who quite frankly, is asking questions she and the community are entitled to know, I'd be pretty livid too.

    Livid is one thing. Looting and burning down people's businesses and homes is quite another - especially on the basis of rumour and fifth-hand account.

    The more I watch the coverage of the riots the more it becomes clear that the rioters I've seen aren't some mass of disaffected youth, venting frustrations at exhausted channels of protest which render them politically impotent: they're thugs, criminals and hooligans in throws of ecstasy at the opportunity to have a blinding tear up with the police while smashing and nicking shit that ain't theirs.

    If there's a discussion to be had about deprivation, lack of education and a degenerative culture, then let's have it, but lets not for a second skew the argument in any way as to take away from the mindless violence which has likely ruined many hard-working people's businesses and/or homes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so, do you think the mindless violence is simply the results of... mindlessness? Where does the mindlessness come from?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fuck knows. But they've started again, in Hackney now. The first riot may have been about social injustice, but I've just watched the bastards smashing a bus' windows whilst a load of passengers are sat on board, using the contents of a HGV that they looted before the driver could escape.

    The sooner the police break out the baton guns, tear gas and water cannon the better, every minute they delay in taking decisive action is another minute where innocent people are getting hurt and losing their livelihoods.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    so, do you think the mindless violence is simply the results of... mindlessness? Where does the mindlessness come from?

    Mindless violence comes from a variety of places - particularly from having oversized adrenal glands combined with a distinct whiff of being able to get away with it. It also comes from a lack of basic human empathy.

    Unless you think it was mindful violence? That after careful consideration the best course of action to rally again injustice, real or perceived, was to burgle a member of the public's house and then set fire to it? Or perhaps setting fire to the Carpetright store and a charity shop was particularly expedient?

    What happened was little different to what happens on the football terraces, or more pertinently: what starts in the football terraces. Certain groups, cultures and people with particular affinities grant themselves carte blanche to behave as they wish.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nope, I don't think it's mindful. It's shortsighted along with everything else. I think that people who move beyond peaceful protest/protest/protest with violence to mindless violence and rioting have a lot less ot lose than I do, which makes me think of having fuck all and a whole heap of poverty.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Dunno what people think poverty does if not lead to shit like this?

    Why? have they suddenly become poor? Why were they not rioting before? Why are areas with even more deprivation (they're 19th) not rioting?

    Come to that was Charlie Gilmour poor? Was Edward Woolard (he who threw the fire extingusher off the Tory Central Office roof).

    Now I'm not saying poverty isn;t a factor, but its a very minor one and what should also be noted is that these riots will lead to even more poverty in these areas
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