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Humm..
September 11th
Neither should anyone else who would plan an attack upon US soil under-estimate the resolute focus and commitment with which we will hunt the perpetrators of said attack to the ends of the earth, and then escort their carcass to the gates of Hell...
I SECOND THAT.:mad:
But surely its best to avoid the whole situation in the first place ? If individulas are quite happy to kill themsleves attacking the USA, I doubt very much your threats to kill them after the attack concerns them very much.
I don't think Mohammed Atta is that concerned about American retribution, no... but what about the rest of al-Qaeda? Of course the dead are dead, no-one's disputing that. However, do you really subscribe to the notion that everyone with blood on their hands for September 11 died that day? If not, then you have to admit that there were still people to be chased after.
Of course people remain on the run, but do these people really care if they are caught and killed ? They see to believe that in dying they become heros and have done their god's work, a staisfying result for them really.
The point is not that they don't care whether they are caught and/or killed. The point is not even whether they would like to become martyrs. The point is that they are out there, and having helped plan various acts, are targets themselves. Both for retributive reasons and what one might call "preventative medicine" they are targets for arrest and/or elimination, regardless of how much they themselves might enjoy such a fate.
Well said, and Id like to add that they want to take as many "western sheep" with them as they possibly can in the process.
They truely believe that it will give them more clout in the afterlife. too bad their theory can be neither proven or disproven. Thats why I dont trust religious leaders of any type, no one can disprove what they are promising.
They dont care how much compassion or thought you put into their 'cause" or whatever its deemed by some.
They need to be stopped, the others need to see the example we set for them. You cant "negotiate" with them.
granted, but in the context of the orginal argument, i was pointing out that the it would be better to try and prevent the terrorist attack in the first place, Kathyrn believed the hatred of her country a joke, I pointed out it wasn't for obvious reasons (sept 11th) Thantos then pointed out that in that case they would be killed, fine, I agree they should be, but my point is that will not deter them. I can visiualise Thantos saying the follwoing
And these terrorist thinking 'so bloody what', that is my point.
In the Real world outside, there will be no magical police force to save us all from the big bad people.
The only thing standing between ourselves and those who would kill us is our own resolve not to be killed. We cant do that surrendering ourselves to be protected by our high and mighty ideals. We have to face the real cruel world.
Have you ever had to fight for your own life and those around you?
This is the real world, not some history book or college class. We cant be overcome by our fear or think evil can be reasoned with or examined.
And putting off stopping them till "some future time" will be too late. Do you think they are sitting back on their cans waiting for our next move? I doubt it.
The terrorists need to be kept on the run, not stored in "safe houses" being show polite "hospitality" Lest we Insult them and "invite" more attacks.
:rolleyes:
For gods sake did you just hand over your lunch money to every bully on the school yard. Time to stand up for your self man.
edit and P.S. I dont think anyone cares whats going through the mind of someone whos trying to kill them. Thats pretty much all these bastards want from us. To surrender and roll over and die for them.
Do I care what they think HELL NO. Will I oblige them HELL NO.;)
Searching and destroying is not a deterrent to them, it removes the current threat but does not send the desired message to the next wave. These are people quite happy to die fighting for what they believe in. Alongside the current military actions bridges must be built, the reasons they attack must be indentified and addressed to a satisfactory outcome for all parties involved.
Continue with the 'we will not give in' line if you choose, but realise that neither will they, they are every bit as passionate about their cause as any American and if nobody is willing to sit down and take a sensible approach many more people will die including Americans, something I'm sure you agree isn't the solution we want.
I'm not suggesting we ask the terrorists what they want and meet their demands, but I think you could do alot better if you shake of this idiotic attitude that you don't care if people in this world hate America and instead begin to ask why they hate America and what if anything can be done about it. Look for solutions in both the short and long term.
At this point I dont believe they can be convinced otherwise.
Neither do I, good riddance to them, but lets try and address the future terrorists now, lets try and prevent another generation from hating the western world so much they see fit to sacrifce their lives and many innocent others and to do that we need to start and identify the reasons they will grow to hate us.
Not long after September 11 I opined that the long term solution had to be one of education, not violent retribution, no matter how necessary that retribution might be to secure our citizens' safety in the short term. In that respect, our biggest weapons are things like the BBC World Service, not bunker-busting bombs.
Then why is Bin Laden hiding?
A little reality on terrorists, ladies and gentlemen.
First, the rank and file of terrorist organizations do not think in the same way as most rational human beings. They operate constantly on hatred. There doesn't need to be a reason for their cause, because their venom is built on an emotional base that will always find a target.
The leadership of these organizations use that hate. They manipulate it to aim it and to build it, and they use it to their own ends; usually money, power or ideology (although the latter is rather scarce in larger terrorist organizations). It is to the advantage of those leaders to maintain the unrest, the "wrong" that gives them their power. They have no desire to die for the cause.
So, who has to be targeted? Those leaders. Pretty simple, isn't it? And very, very difficult in reality. But not impossible.
Found this on another site...it appears that the 'police' over there are at least a whackey as some of ours...!
Exactly. So why not spend money on aid, adopt a sensible foreign policy, and remove the basis for the hatred?
It's far harder for a terrorist leader to recruit in a prospering country receiving international help than it is to recruit in a country under attack by foreign airforces.
You assume a rational basis for the hatred. Terrorist rank and file will find something to hate. Their leadership will make sure of it.
Do you like vanilla ice cream? How about chocolate? How about if someone chooses to hate you because you like one of those? Will you stop eating it?
Amen to that. The more I study this the more apparent it becomes. Hate is their commodity. Its very profitable for them why would the depart from it?
As long as the palistinians are used as a "cause" alot of middle eastern countries have a thiving business. Unfortunately its the at the young palestinians expense, as well as the victims of all this terrorism.
Im not pro israel either.
To me its a situation that has gotten out of hand and I think all financial support should be withdrawn from both governments.
No. In the case of some terrorist organizations, their hatred is flamed in order to make their leadership richer (PLO, IRA).
And therein you have one of the pillars of my argument for education (in a broad sense of the word) as central to a lon term solution to the terrorist problem. Of course there will always be sociopaths who will hate anyway, but I think that many of those people consumed by hate who are brought into the folds of al-Qaeda, the PIRA, ETA and so on, could be 'saved' (if that is the right word) by a far better education earlier on. Theirs is a mindless hatred: it is easy to hate mindlessly when the entirety of one's education is the Koran (if one can read at all); it is hard to hate mindlessly when one is well-read and well-schooled in the practices of rational thought and analysis.
Didn't OBL get his higher education in Engalnd :eek:
and those in the Arabian states will continue to do so all the time that the US foreign policy appears to be prejudiced against them.
What they see is US guns and equipment being used by US trained forces against Palestinians. They see the US calling them "an axis of evil". They see both Iraqis being killed and Iran being ostracised. They look at US policy towards many of their neighbour states. Remember the arabs see each other as "family" when threatened.
I'm not suggesting that in each of these cases they are correct, neither do I suggest that the current action is unjustified. What I am saying (like others here) is that you need a longterm strategy, something for future generations to latch on to so that they can say "Hey, wait a minute the US does care about us", but at present they cannot see it.
Months ago, I posted the "Poverty of Dignity" thread, including an article which stated that the common denominator of the September 11 terrorists was their education in Belgium. According to that article, the situation was one of a lack of self esteem within the Arabs through their experiences in Europe, but focusing their hatred toward the US.
Must be a lesson there, somewhere. Don't like what is going on around you? Focus your hate on the US. Don't like your treatment by Europeans? Hate the US. Don't like women being treated as peoples, rather than property? Hate the US. Don't like the food in Belgium? Hate the US.
Education hardly seems to be the path to a peaceful co-existence... :rolleyes: Neither does the US spending more on foreign aid than all of the other nations of the world, throughout all of history.
Even when they are threatened/attacked by other members of their "family"...
Why was it that Saudi welcomed US forces? Have anything to do with fearing being over-run by Iraq?
Wasn't there this little "brotherly" spat between Iran/Iraq?
Hussein looting Kuwait had alot to do with going after funds to finance nuclear weapons, and the capaibility of carrying them to Europe, and beyond. Anyone remember the "war crimes" committed upon the Kuwaiti's by the Iraqi's? Oh, I forgot... it was by their own family, therefore acceptable... :rolleyes:
US get in the way of their rape/pilage/murder way of expressing their "brotherly love"? Hate the US... :rolleyes: