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A teacher goes berserk!

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    please be careful about repeating things people hear from those involved

    First thing i thought reading this thread. Lots of ifs, buts and maybe. Nothing first had, all my mates blah blah.

    As far as the cane goes. We had it at my comprehensive school (11-16 for all you year 12 type people :) ) but i honestly believe 'fear of the cane'
    had very little to do with discipline. As i get older i believe hitting people, especially children/young adults is a very poor way of getting them to do what you say/punish them. Look at the way we're up in arms when the police overstep the mark. Why do some people think it's ok to hit school children ?

    Going back to me at school. There were some i liked, some i hated, most i was indifferent too, but they were all (bar a couple of exceptions) good teachers. What to do ? No idea. The teacher was in charge and i knew/was taught that what they asked me to do , i did it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yea I never meant to advocate the cane, more than it was a symbol of power and that's what teachers need to take back. They should not be afraid of the students, but the students should be 'afraid' of them (or rather, mindful and respectful).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I almost went to that school! Sorry lol. I know from my experience at another school just down the road that kids can be real shits, we had a couple at my school leave from nervous breakdowns - so it looks like he just snapped, no excuse like but i bet the kids weren't being exactly angels.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Yea I never meant to advocate the cane, more than it was a symbol of power and that's what teachers need to take back. They should not be afraid of the students, but the students should be 'afraid' of them (or rather, mindful and respectful).
    The balance of human rights in in favour of students. Teachers have few with c hildren in the school. Management is too frightened of parents suing the education authority. Staff's hands are tied by work regulations and naughty students know that
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote: »
    I almost went to that school! Sorry lol. I know from my experience at another school just down the road that kids can be real shits, we had a couple at my school leave from nervous breakdowns - so it looks like he just snapped, no excuse like but i bet the kids weren't being exactly angels.
    I know of people who work in schools- teachers going sick for stress is common and there's the ones that buckle and lose the plot
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    *resists temptation to make snide joke about Blunkett's Bobbies* :p



    Meh, as a whole we're disrespected thanks to the Daily Fail, individually though? The last kid to make pig noises at me in a school was over 6 months ago and he got a right ear-bashing off me and then detention off the school.

    The kids do need adults in school they can confide in. Some of the issues they're facing aren't things I did when I was at school and that was only 10 years ago. Maybe not the teachers always, but I'd have loved having a teacher who was friendly and who you could go to with problems.
    Instead I had a load of hatchet faced bastards who hated the kids and hated the job.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    They'll have to like it or lump it, as far as I'm concerned. Behave yourself properly and you'll have nothing to worry about.



    Apologies for the double post.

    Bringing back the cane would never work. I have to deal with so much shit caused by parents who think the sun shines out their child's arse that if one of them were to be hit by a teacher all hell would break loose.

    The real problem in schools now isn't the lack of punishments available to teachers, it's the parents who are unable to see that their kid is the spawn of Satan.
    Second time he's been in trouble? We're picking on them. 3rd time? Parent starts going on about sueing us for bullying.
    You can't win, because for some reason a parent thinks they know their child's behaviour better than someone who spends all day every day with them.
  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Apologies for the double post.

    The real problem in schools now isn't the lack of punishments available to teachers, it's the parents who are unable to see that their kid is the spawn of Satan.
    Second time he's been in trouble? We're picking on them. 3rd time? Parent starts going on about sueing us for bullying.
    You can't win, because for some reason a parent thinks they know their child's behaviour better than someone who spends all day every day with them.

    The real problem in schools is that you do not get the support from high up when you deal out punishments because schools / headteachers are scared of repercussions. I know of one school, where there was a Y6 child who needed restraining, he pulled the teacher over and she ended up breaking his leg. This was after we had training on team teach and positive handling. The headteacher was more concerned about the fact that mum *could* sue the school. Not the fact that this teacher was traumatised for something that was a complete accident and could've been thrown out of the profession.

    There was no support available to this teacher. She had *nothing* and was a wreck for weeks. Nothing from the LA, nothing from the headteacher, no support structure allowing her to get on with her job. She suffered and the kids in her class suffered for a few weeks.

    Teachers are scared of doing anything in schools because of this 'sue me' culture we seem to have gotten ourselves into. And the crazy thing is, most of the parents *know* what their children are like. And will tell you that they are little shits. But are still interested in a fast buck. Or just don't actually care about what happens in school because they just send their kids to school for day care.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The real problem in schools is that you do not get the support from high up when you deal out punishments because schools / headteachers are scared of repercussions. I know of one school, where there was a Y6 child who needed restraining, he pulled the teacher over and she ended up breaking his leg. This was after we had training on team teach and positive handling. The headteacher was more concerned about the fact that mum *could* sue the school. Not the fact that this teacher was traumatised for something that was a complete accident and could've been thrown out of the profession.

    There was no support available to this teacher. She had *nothing* and was a wreck for weeks. Nothing from the LA, nothing from the headteacher, no support structure allowing her to get on with her job. She suffered and the kids in her class suffered for a few weeks.

    Teachers are scared of doing anything in schools because of this 'sue me' culture we seem to have gotten ourselves into. And the crazy thing is, most of the parents *know* what their children are like. And will tell you that they are little shits. But are still interested in a fast buck. Or just don't actually care about what happens in school because they just send their kids to school for day care.



    I guess I must be lucky, in that the head teachers will support their staff to the very ends of the earth. The governors however......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    KiwiFruit wrote: »
    A teacher goes berserk!

    What do you mean by 'another teacher'? Have there been other attacks lately?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's one quick and easy solution to it all.

    Kids who verbally or physically abuse teachers or pupils are dragged from school and put into a secure boarding school until such a time as they learn how to act like a human being. They don't go home to get their X-Box and their knives, they go straight to the secure school. No discussion, no question, and certainly no condescending bullshit about 'bad childhoods' or 'attention deficit disorder'.

    Kids who can't or won't behave properly in mainstream education need to be in specialist education, where they can deal with their own issues without fucking up everyone else's chances in life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    Kids who can't or won't behave properly in mainstream education need to be in specialist education, where they can deal with their own issues without fucking up everyone else's chances in life.

    I agree. When I was doing my GCSEs (apart from maths) I was always put in classes with all the naughty kids. They weren't interested in learning at all, but I was.
    Kids who verbally or physically abuse teachers or pupils are dragged from school and put into a secure boarding school until such a time as they learn how to act like a human being.

    I agree. There is/was a rubbish system at my old school where, if you were naughty you got a verbal warning. if you were naughty again, you got another verbal, if you were naughty again, you got sent out. if you were naughty again, you got detention. It never worked at all.

    When I was getting bullied (physically and verbally) I got told "it's nothing", ok then, there's nothing wrong with having your belongings stolen, then?:rolleyes: And it was always my fault. Yeah, as if I wanted to be bullied.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    When I was getting bullied (physically and verbally) I got told "it's nothing", ok then, there's nothing wrong with having your belongings stolen, then?:rolleyes: And it was always my fault. Yeah, as if I wanted to be bullied.

    My friend experienced exactly the same and I was witness to it. In my opinion in his circumstance it was because the teacher was doing the whole 'see no evil, hear no evil' thing. Teaching is stressful enough without addressing bullying. If the teacher pretends its just friends or isn't bullying, they don't have to worry about it.

    I agree with Kermit's idea in the sense that I would like justice, but then it screams to me 'workhouses' where the undesirables of society are cast away to rot. On the upside, we should be happy that educational standards are pretty high these days compared to 50 years ago, so the education system is doing something right. How to cure the current issue of student behaviour is complicated with no easy answers.

    I think a lot of it might be down to some teachers being a bit too soft, though. I don't say this in a mean way, but it was clear to me at school that some teachers can control a class from the beginning to the end effectively and with minimal disruption. So maybe assertiveness training for teachers might help in some situations? I don't know, I'm not an expert really.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have to say that I don't care if moving misbehaving children into secure schools is similar to the workhouses. If a child will not behave properly in mainstream education it should be removed from mainstream education. It should only be allowed back in when it has learned how to behave properly.

    Most children manage to behave properly so I'm all for throwing the book at those children who will not behave properly. And I really couldn't give a monkeys why they will not behave properly. Most children behave properly and they're having their chances destroyed by scum that everyone's too scared to punish.

    Standing here now, I'd put my hand on my heart and say I would move hell and high water to avoid putting my children through state education. There are too many state schools with too many badly behaved violent pupils and nobody will do anything about them. And my views on private education are well known.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here's one school we feel we dodged a bullet in not sending our daughter to. A month later, the boy from the article was reported to have been subjected to a torrent of 'cyber-bullying'. For pointing out that the toilets were crap? That second article, oddly enough, is not available online.

    Students' fears for school
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really do emphasise with you Kermit - I was bullied at school and would have loved nothing more than for all the [insert RAGE here] to be sent to indonesia to build some railways or something.

    But there is always the other side of the coin, and what if, in your case, it was your child that was being sent to one of these 'secure schools'? That is the true nightmare of it, and I think success or fail that's been the issue the comprehensive school has tried to address. Whether teachers are properly equipped or prepared to deal with that I don't know, I definitely agree that parents have much to answer for.

    As with you though, if I have the means I'm definitely sending my kids (if/when that happens) to private school. Not because I don't trust the state system as such, but I don't want them to be bullied and I do want to give them the very very best start in life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »

    As with you though, if I have the means I'm definitely sending my kids (if/when that happens) to private school. Not because I don't trust the state system as such, but I don't want them to be bullied and I do want to give them the very very best start in life.




    Why does everybody assume that just because a school is private it won't have bullies?
    The bullies are still there, they're just richer.


    I've been told by a friend with a son at a private school that bullying is rife, and because of the sums of money involved the school won't do anything about it.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,170 Skive's The Limit
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Why does everybody assume that just because a school is private it won't have bullies?
    The bullies are still there, they're just richer.

    Exactly what I was thinking.

    Private school kids still behave badly.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    Exactly what I was thinking.

    Private school kids still behave badly.

    As a former public schoolboy I can testify to this.

    However, what is different, is that pupils do not disrupt lessons, assualt and abuse teachers and generally prevent people from learning, at least not where I schooled. Firstly, there was respect for the teaching staff, and secondly, people wanted to learn (presumably because their parents were paying for the privilege) and thus created the atmosphere which was condusive to actually learning stuff.

    Though the same level of drinking and drugs went on. Meh, kids will be kids. Reminds me of some words from some bard from Brum:

    "I would that there were no age between ten and three-and-twenty, or that youth would sleep out the rest; for there is nothing in the between but getting wenches with child, wronging the ancientry, stealing, fighting"

    Rowdy, disrespectful kids are nothing new. Plato moaned about it, and people have been doing it ever since. What has changed is how we deal with it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wasn't talking about bullies, though. Bullies are everywhere, in every walk of life, and it isn't just children who bully. I think everyone has had a boss or work colleague who's been a bullying toerag at least once in their life.

    I was talking about the learning environment. They may be rich spoilt brats, but at least they are (generally) rich spoilt brats who don't disrupt lessons and don't think it's appropriate to physically and verbally abuse teachers.

    Kids doing drugs and drink is normal, it's what teenagers do. That doesn't really bother me either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah, I probably didn't think that through enough. I guess any parent or prospective parents want the best start in life for their kids and also wants to protect them from the evils of the world. Some like bullying I guess most people come across and it's just a fact of life - people need to learn to deal with intimidating people.

    I guess the impression I had was that public school was safer in a sense, where there would be a better pastoral care system and even if there is bullying that peers may be more supportive. Not to scream woe is me, my school wasn't all that bad, but we had a boy murdered, a girl raped and much more lower level stuff you don't want your kids exposed to - on more than one occasion some students took it upon themselves to self harm in class which resulted in lots and lots of blood :/, on one occasion a girl tried to kill herself by swallowing some stuff in a chemistry lesson. She very nearly earned herself a darwin award there.

    The 'naughty' kids as I shall call them were segregated from the rest of the school - to expel them would be to lose about £3000 a year per child or something silly (x30 students say, that's a shitload of cash) so instead they just got lots of teaching assistants and hid them away. I'm not saying the system is completely broken, the teachers did the best job they could and I managed to get to York going through this school so they're not all bad.

    But if you have the choice, of that, and an exclusive school that would hopefully try to focus the kids on positive development and deal with issues like mental health problems or violence in a very proactive manner as the schools are so exclusive and want to look great they will want to deal with the issues, whereas with the state schools (purely conjecture here, so give me three pinches of salt :)) they have hundreds of students to teach so don't have the time, resources or will to look after every individual students needs. Hence, if you are disruptive, they just put you in a closed classroom for the whole day with a staff-student ratio of about 1-5, and get you doing the most basic stuff. And if you have emotional or mental issues... well good luck.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »

    Kids doing drugs and drink is normal, it's what teenagers do. That doesn't really bother me either.

    I'm not talking about drinking or drugs.

    My friend's son had a bottle of piss thrown over him the other day.

    I've worked in schools for over a year and I've never had anyone do that in a comp.

    When it comes to pastoral and behavioural support, comprehensives win easily. They have a vested interest in keeping the kid there and improving their behaviour (their funding depends on it).
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,170 Skive's The Limit
    I went to state school. Kids misbehaved in class but very few had a lack of respect for the teachers. Certainly not to the point where they were verbally or physically attacked. It was a seriously strict school, with a strict code of uniform and behaviour.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    Exactly what I was thinking.

    Private school kids still behave badly.
    Children at private schools just have rich parents- they're not angels at all. And staff at private schools are no different than teachers in state schools- they go from one school to another in changing jobs. Only difference is independent schools are not state funded but charge a fee
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    KiwiFruit wrote: »
    Children at private schools just have rich parents- they're not angels at all. And staff at private schools are no different than teachers in state schools- they go from one school to another in changing jobs. Only difference is independent schools are not state funded but charge a fee

    The ignorance in this post is quite overwhelming.

    1) Not all parents who send their kids to private (or public) are rich. Mine aren't. For example, at my old school, around half of the pupils were on some form of financial aid, either academic or music scholarships, or the parents simply needed help with the fees. The emphasis was on the ability of the child, rather than the size of their parents' chequebook. That's why we were (at least during my time) top of the A Level league, because we took the brightest and best, not the richest. They went to Eton, Harrow, Charterhouse, Stowe, etc. etc.

    2) There are some bad sorts, granted. But nothing to the extent of what happens in state schools happened at my school. Violence towards teachers? Fuck, I dread to think what would have happened had someone even considered throwing a chair at a teacher. My old Latin teacher carried a Bowie knife in her bag. We all made sure we behaved in Latin. She once made one of my friends dance a hornpipe at the front of the class. That was quite funny in retrospect.

    It's the culture that's instilled there. We were there to learn, and develop as human beings. Partly out of guilt in knowing that our parents have paid a lot (in some cases) to send their kids there, so we better knuckle down. But also partly via the atmosphere of the place. It exudes learning and scholarship and that was exactly the atmosphere it fostered.

    3) Teachers do not move around half as much in the private sector. Why? Well, they're not being assaulted, verbally abused and generally treated like shit. And for what? For trying to educate these kids, to try and instill some knowledge in them, to try and mould them into productive members of society. Perhaps I'm over-romancing this a little, but there has been, in the past 10 years or so, a mass exodus from the public sector to the independent sector, simply because in the latter, teachers can actually be teachers, rather than crowd control.

    The private sector was, is, and always will be, pound for pound, the better option. I personally am going to do everything in my power to make sure that I can educate my kids that way as anyone who does not honestly believe that it gives them the best education available frankly needs their head examining.
  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    You will still get problems in private schools as well as in state schools. Simple as. The problems and issues will be different, mind.

    I work in education. I see / hear what happens day in, day out. I would send my child to a state primary school (although I will be fussy over which one in my area - there are a couple of really good ones, there are a couple of really shit ones). I would do all that I could to avoid sending my child to the state secondary that we are currently residing in. If that means private school, moving house, whatever, then I would do my damnedest to avoid that happening.

    It must be remembered, though, that not all state secondaries are like the ones mentioned. I know of one that is not too far away (not my local one and has a waiting list) that is really good, has little behaviour issues because the head is extremely effective and stamps it out, gets extremely good grades and the kids seem happy. I know of another that is the complete opposite and very much an ineffective school. I know which one I would fight to get my child into.

    It's a sorry state of affairs, and I sincerely hope that when my children get to that age things have changed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    What do you mean by 'another teacher'? Have there been other attacks lately?
    When did I say 'another'? slips me
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