Home Politics & Debate

Homosexuality: natural, nurture or just abnormal

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Last weekend there was another successful Gay Pride parade in London. Over the last few decades, being gay and lesbian has changed from being a psychiatric illness to being very acceptable today. There's still homophobia, but liberal politicians have brought in civil partnerships and open public discrimination has been suppressed

Is homosexuality a natural sexual act, something learnt by socialization or do you still think it's wrong?
«13456

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's disgusting. All tall, muscley, well endowed gay men should be sent to me immedeately for de-homoising. Well one night with me would turn anyone straight :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've got absolutely nothing against boys who like boys and girls who like girls, but I'm not really comfortable with the whole effeminate man thing, I don't think men should spend longer in Boots than their girlfriends etc. I suppose I agree homosexuality is fine, but I get annoyed by campness.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've got absolutely nothing against boys who like boys and girls who like girls, but I'm not really comfortable with the whole effeminate man thing, I don't think men should spend longer in Boots than their girlfriends etc. I suppose I agree homosexuality is fine, but I get annoyed by campness.

    I met people who agree with you- camp men are a put off. The homosexual act is OK as it's in private in their home- nobody else's business
    RubberSkin wrote: »
    It's disgusting. All tall, muscley, well endowed gay men should be sent to me immedeately for de-homoising. Well one night with me would turn anyone straight :thumb:

    You obviously believe being gay and lesbian is abnormal. Should homosexual sex be actually outlawed?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    KiwiFruit wrote: »
    The homosexual act is OK as it's in private in their home- nobody else's business
    Do you feel the same about hetero couples doing their act? In private? In their own homes?

    When you say 'act' what exactly do you mean? Sexing? Kissing? Holding hands?

    You obviously believe being gay and lesbian is abnormal. Should homosexual sex be actually outlawed?

    :D:D:D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who ever (over age obviously) or whatever (except animals of course) you fancy going to bed with is your choice.

    However, men who are overty gay (screemingly camp) or overty hetrosexual ('I've banged 1000 women and my cock is 2 foot long') are irritating and not people I want to socialise with. But they have every right to exist I suppose.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    However, men who are overty gay (screemingly camp) or overty hetrosexual ('I've banged 1000 women and my cock is 2 foot long') are irritating and not people I want to socialise with.

    In total agreement with all of that - the problem being as soon as you publicly raise objections to screaming camp behaviour you're automatically 'homophobic' and the shutters go up - you can't even engage some people in debate.

    But as for homosexuality - who cares? Why is it so divisive? Given a list of issues, I'd rather be more concerned about the recession than who is sticking what in where.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's an important point to be made here; there shouldn't really be any kind of major 'debate' on homosexuality being 'unnatural' anymore because larges and ever increasing bodies of evidence demonstrates the presence of homosexual or bisexual relations within every large human population and many animal populations.

    It's only ignorant, bigoted and/or powerful religious interests that make this 'unnatural' assertion in the face of such evidence. Thankfully, people who know something about human biology and development realise this, so that's why gender reassignment is available on the NHS.

    'Sexuality' and 'Gender' (as budda alludes to) are best to be thought of on a sliding scale; one which includes heterosexuality, homoseuxality, bisexuality, transgender people.

    Of course, the way in which people experience and live out their own gender identities, and those of others, is in large part conditioned by the societies in which they take place. So it isn't 'learned' in the sense of being picked up - individual behaviours that arise as a result of expressing gender or sexuality may be learned and have particular significance for particular social groups.

    Personally, I agree with budda, but thats a personality issue - I don't like such behaviour because I find it an imposition that is domineering and overbearing - it's a power issue in social interactions, rather than there being anything 'wrong' with homosexuality.

    To still conceive of gender outside of 'normative' heterosexual relations 'unnatural' is problematic without knowledge of the body of evidence to the contrary; when faced with it to still make such claims is willfully ignorant and hateful.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sneer wrote: »
    Do you feel the same about hetero couples doing their act? In private? In their own homes?

    It makes no diference the sexual orientation- sex is a personal choice between consenting adults in the bedroom. Sex in public is outlawed as people here are aware- then the law used to ban homosexual sex and in some countries around the world gay sex is still illegal
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's only ignorant, bigoted and/or powerful religious interests that make this 'unnatural' assertion in the face of such evidence.

    If you're talking about Christianity there then you're a bit wide of the mark. The bible makes no distinction between gay and adulterous relationships. However if you're referring to any of the other faiths then you may well be right :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Of course, the way in which people experience and live out their own gender identities, and those of others, is in large part conditioned by the societies in which they take place. So it isn't 'learned' in the sense of being picked up - individual behaviours that arise as a result of expressing gender or sexuality may be learned and have particular significance for particular social groups.
    Yes, society's or a social group's norms can affect sexual inclinations and people can pick up the message of the 'norm' which can affect the direction of orientation. Like families, some parents will shun offspring who come out gay and other moms and dads accept their children whoever they grow up to be
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you're talking about Christianity there then you're a bit wide of the mark. The bible makes no distinction between gay and adulterous relationships. However if you're referring to any of the other faiths then you may well be right :)

    But mixing the two is grossly unfair. One is a betrayl of trust and the other is a concenting sexual act - they are completely different.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    But mixing the two is grossly unfair. One is a betrayl of trust and the other is a concenting sexual act - they are completely different.

    No you're missing the point.

    Homosexuality does not necessarily equate homosexual sex. The bible says nothing about being homosexual - only the act of sex itself and only because it's outside of marriage, as is an adulterous relationship.

    Put simply, the bible disapproves of any sexual encounter outside of marriage. Whether it's between a gay or straight couple, it is viewed on the same level.

    So someone who is homosexual is not disapproved of by the bible, regardless of what some militant hardcore fundamentalists will tell you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Homosexuality does not necessarily equate homosexual sex. The bible says nothing about being homosexual - only the act of sex itself and only because it's outside of marriage, as is an adulterous relationship.

    Put simply, the bible disapproves of any sexual encounter outside of marriage. Whether it's between a gay or straight couple, it is viewed on the same level.
    If a law was passed in Parliament bringing in same sex marriage, with equivalent footing to heterosexual marriages, should the Church give its blessing and wed gay and lesbian couples?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    KiwiFruit wrote: »
    If a law was passed in Parliament bringing in same sex marriage, with equivalent footing to heterosexual marriages, should the Church give its blessing and wed gay and lesbian couples?

    It depends on who you mean by 'the church'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    KiwiFruit wrote: »
    If a law was passed in Parliament bringing in same sex marriage, with equivalent footing to heterosexual marriages, should the Church give its blessing and wed gay and lesbian couples?
    Technically I think they would be obliged to but some conservative vicars would probably make heroes of themselves by sticking to doing things the old fashioned way.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No you're missing the point.

    Homosexuality does not necessarily equate homosexual sex. The bible says nothing about being homosexual - only the act of sex itself and only because it's outside of marriage, as is an adulterous relationship.

    Put simply, the bible disapproves of any sexual encounter outside of marriage. Whether it's between a gay or straight couple, it is viewed on the same level.

    So someone who is homosexual is not disapproved of by the bible, regardless of what some militant hardcore fundamentalists will tell you.

    So someone can be gay they just cant do anything about it, what a lovely compromise for them to come to. Religious dogma which is outdated, discriminatory and unpleasant - but then I suppose that can be said for a lot of it.

    Having said that though of the few people who I have met who I would count as real christians they have been the nicest most forgiving and accepting people around.

    I really cant understand how Christians can shun those who a gay, even if they dont agree with it, Christ hung around with whores and tax collectors!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    So someone can be gay they just cant do anything about it, what a lovely compromise for them to come to. Religious dogma which is outdated, discriminatory and unpleasant - but then I suppose that can be said for a lot of it.

    Having said that though of the few people who I have met who I would count as real christians they have been the nicest most forgiving and accepting people around.

    I really cant understand how Christians can shun those who a gay, even if they dont agree with it, Christ hung around with whores and tax collectors!

    To be fair I don't make the rules ;)

    I'm born-again but I don't consider myself as religious. I don't think I conform to any image of someone with faith, I'm just me. I answer only to Big J. Saying that though I don't know anyone else who has the stereotyped view of bigoted Christians - not saying there aren't any out there but I'd hazard a guess on them being the minority.

    The problem is you only get to hear about the minority as they create the headlines (ie Westboro Baptist Church etc). The rest of us, who couldn't give 2 tosses about what people get up to in private are by and large ignored.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The problem is you only get to hear about the minority as they create the headlines (ie Westboro Baptist Church etc). The rest of us, who couldn't give 2 tosses about what people get up to in private are by and large ignored.

    Of course, the media always likes a nut, rational voices aren't 'news'.

    But the dogma is still very much there, personally I think there is a good argument for the church saying that now homosexuals can have long term legal relationships that the situation has changed. But that is their choice. After all Christians have done away with a lot of the nutty rules from the Old Testiment.

    They are welcome to their opinion unless they use it as an excuse for discrimination.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    But the dogma is still very much there, personally I think there is a good argument for the church saying that now homosexuals can have long term legal relationships that the situation has changed. But that is their choice. After all Christians have done away with a lot of the nutty rules from the Old Testiment.

    Thing is I don't know who you mean when you say 'the church'. But there is a growing school of thought that suggests Jesus was more in favour of monogamous relationships but with no emphasis on gender. It might not be written in scripture but I don't have a problem with the notion that Jesus was in favour of committed and loyal relationships, regardless of either couple having whatever 'equipment'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It depends on who you mean by 'the church'.
    In relation to the bible. If the bible doesn't make homosexuality forbidden except that any sex between unmarried people is wrong. If marriage included gays and lesbian, does it mean homosexuality is perfectly acceptable as much as heterosexual sex
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Technically I think they would be obliged to but some conservative vicars would probably make heroes of themselves by sticking to doing things the old fashioned way.
    Then doesn't doing things by the law come first, instead of working by popular prejudice
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    KiwiFruit wrote: »
    In relation to the bible.

    Sorry but that still doesn't make it any clearer.
    KiwiFruit wrote: »
    If the bible doesn't make homosexuality forbidden except that any sex between unmarried people is wrong. If marriage included gays and lesbian, does it mean homosexuality is perfectly acceptable as much as heterosexual sex

    From memory, the bible designed marriage to be a basis for family life so the whole 'gay sex' thing comes from the fact that it does not lead to reproduction (I could be wrong about the bible's view there, it's been a while since I did any studying on that).

    To make it clear though the bible doesn't single out homosexual sex for treatment - as I mentioned earlier it places it on par with adulterous sex.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm staying out of the whole religion argument.

    To be honest, I couldn't really care whether someone is gay or not. I have gay friends, and I treat them in exactly the same way I would anybody else (and vice versa).
    The idea of gay sex (M/M or F/F) isn't something that repulses me in any particular way (unless it's two particularly ugly people)

    The thing that does bother me is the massively skewed way that some people who are gay are "allowed" to behave.

    I know/have known people in the past who will make outrageous statements about a member of the same sex, be hugely inappropriate (for a work environment, for example) and for it all to be laughed off because "he's gay" or "she's gay" and that's that.

    Yet replace the two people in the scenario with a straight guy making the exact same comments about some woman, and the guy becomes a chauvanistic pig, or a creep, or a letch, or something along those lines.


    I don't see why it's one rule for one and one for the other. I'm all for equality regardless of sexual orientation, but it should be exactly that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I never understood the "unnatural" argument. For a start, anything that humans do is natural, since humans are a product of nature and behave in a way that is determined by nature. If it wasn't, then that would presumably place it in the area of supernatural, which is right up there in terms of reasoning with "she's a witch!"

    But even if we entertain this idea that it's not natural, what difference would that make? It's as "unnatural" as music, but you don't see any campaigns to get rid of that on the grounds of it being unnatural. Similarly, the urge to be violent is one of the most natural instincts we possess, and pretty much everyone agrees to the huge resources we put into ridding society of it.

    So we're left with the only question we have left: what harm does it cause? And nobody has ever answered this one, beyond the "harm" of being gay itself, and some horribly misinformed and usually completely hypocritical arguments about STDs.

    Incidentally, homophobia is just as natural (generally caused by insecurity of sexuality in the person), but since it does cause harm, we try to rid the world of it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Eddish wrote: »
    The thing that does bother me is the massively skewed way that some people who are gay are "allowed" to behave.

    I know/have known people in the past who will make outrageous statements about a member of the same sex, be hugely inappropriate (for a work environment, for example) and for it all to be laughed off because "he's gay" or "she's gay" and that's that.

    Yet replace the two people in the scenario with a straight guy making the exact same comments about some woman, and the guy becomes a chauvanistic pig, or a creep, or a letch, or something along those lines.


    I don't see why it's one rule for one and one for the other. I'm all for equality regardless of sexual orientation, but it should be exactly that.

    I think that's more a case of being able to say things about men that would be frowned upon by women, than anything to do with sexuality. In the same way that grabbing a guys arse is a bit of fun, but grabbing a girls arse is sexual harrassment. It's double standard, but equally, it's reflective of stereotypical (and possibly accurate) power dynamics between men a women.

    But there are still massive double standards. A gay kiss will still provoke a massively different reaction to a straight kiss. And of course anyone who complains will claim that they oppose PDAs in general, but the fact that a gay scene in a soap will get complaints when the equivalent straight scene wouldn't, proves that this is BS most of the time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Incidentally, homophobia is just as natural (generally caused by insecurity of sexuality in the person), but since it does cause harm, we try to rid the world of it.
    That's right. Some men who make homophobic remarks and jokes are in fact constantly fighting an insecure side of their psychological sexual complex
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry but that still doesn't make it any clearer.
    If the bible has nothing against homosexuality assuming a gay couple could be legally married, then the christain faith should embrace homosexual behaviour. The Church should then recognise homosexuality is now normal not just legal
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But who do you mean by 'the church'??
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nature or nurture? I honestly have no idea whether someone's upbringing could make them homosexual. Either way, I don't care.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But who do you mean by 'the church'??
    Not being a Christian myself, I was referring to the Christian movement. The 'Church' relating to christianity can have many different denominations, if thats what you're getting at. Each with a different way of interpreting the bible and preaching a different lifestyle to followers
Sign In or Register to comment.