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Age wage difference

**helen****helen** Mod malarkistPosts: 9,235 Listening Ear
Do you think it's out of order that the minimum wage differs depending on your age? Our latest ranter has a lot to say on the issue..

Thoughts?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't really know to be honest. Equality would be good but as someone who spent a year and a half working for £3.40 an hour when some of my friends were earning a damn sight more, it certainly made me value my money and save it for things instead of spending it willy nilly.

    Last year my best mate and I were going to travel round Europe over the Summer. I managed to save enough money on my crappy wage. He, on the other hand, had been earning £7-something or other and han been buying lots of fancy clothes and whatnot because he was confident that he would easily have the money as he earned double what I did. We ended up not going because he had no money because he had to pay for his car insurance and his clothes spending had taken the money he should've had left over.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm all for young people getting paid the same, on the caveat that student discount, young person's railcards, reduced bus fares and anything else similar are done away with.
    They discriminate against me because I'm older.

    It works both ways.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why is it that rants on TheSite are always written either by students or people who are in non-jobs?

    The Government's approach to the minimum wage is utterly half-arsed and retarded. They claim that the reason 16 to 21 year olds have a lower minimum wage is to encourage them to go to university. Elsewhere in the system, students are bullied during their college courses into applying for university places, regardless of whether it's the best thing for them or not. We also have the government's latest propaganda pieces being broadcast on TV - Joseph Goebbels himself would have been proud of such misleading adverts. Apparently, a university degree will help people in their careers. Oh yeah?

    Tell that to the hordes of graduates who will find themselves on the dole or menial jobs this summer. Tell those people who have gone on a debt spree in order to fund their degree that it was worth it when they are unable to find a job with it. The problem has existed for years, and will be exacerbated further by the recession. Now the government is talking about helping graduates out by giving companies bungs in order to take on staff. And what are they gonna do exactly? Employers are not going to hire people simply so they can sit on their arses all day. There's a recession on, dontchaknow?

    A 16-year old shop assistant does the same job as one who is 32 years old - I see no reason why they should be paid differently. The minimum wage should begin at the age of 16 and there should only be one grouping. It's time for government to stop interfering in people's lives.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    I'm all for young people getting paid the same, on the caveat that student discount, young person's railcards, reduced bus fares and anything else similar are done away with.
    They discriminate against me because I'm older.

    It works both ways.

    I disagree. Why shouldn't students - who, if they are working, aren't going to be working full-time, or anywhere near close to - get 10% off their jeans and t-shirts? I understand your issue with railcards and if rail fares weren't the extortion that they are I would agree. I'm sure you get more privileges being older that younger people don't as well.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Franki wrote: »
    I'm sure you get more privileges being older that younger people don't as well.

    Such as?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Mist wrote: »
    Such as?

    You get to shake your fist and shout "You goddamn kids better get off my lawn!". Plus, old person naps.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    I'm all for young people getting paid the same, on the caveat that student discount, young person's railcards, reduced bus fares and anything else similar are done away with. They discriminate against me because I'm older.
    Somehow managed to miss this one, but agree with it all the way. Why should students receive discounts not available to most of the population? No one forced them to study at university - why should they get favours from everyone else because of it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Mist wrote: »
    Such as?
    I don't know, but there are probably some. I'm not your age so I wouldn't know.

    To be fair, I do agree that if people who are working full time were to all earn the same wage then it would be unfair for younger people to pay less, but I still think students should get some sort of discount.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Somehow managed to miss this one, but agree with it all the way. Why should students receive discounts not available to most of the population? No one forced them to study at university - why should they get favours from everyone else because of it?
    pssh, stop being so bitter.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Somehow managed to miss this one, but agree with it all the way. Why should students receive discounts not available to most of the population? No one forced them to study at university - why should they get favours from everyone else because of it?

    Um, because there's no way they can earn as much, even if the minimum wage amount was universal? No, nobody forced them, but why should they not be able to buy things they need/want just like other people just because they chose to continue their education?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You get to shake your fist and shout "You goddamn kids better get off my lawn!". Plus, old person naps.

    Well I have to approve of that. Those darn kids.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Same job - same wage, regardless of age. It's pathetic that it is any other way.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Franki wrote: »
    Um, because there's no way they can earn as much, even if the minimum wage amount was universal? No, nobody forced them, but why should they not be able to buy things they need/want just like other people just because they chose to continue their education?
    They're the ones who chose to do it, they knew full well what they were getting into. That's why. And the idea that a degree will automatically help you earn more money is increasingly questionable at best, discredited at worst.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Come on, it's not as though companies give student discounts out of the kindness of their hearts, it's a commercial decision.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    They're the ones who chose to do it, they knew full well what they were getting into. That's why. And the idea that a degree will automatically help you earn more money is increasingly questionable at best, discredited at worst.
    You think that people go into degrees just because they want more money? I'm going into my degree knowing that I'm going to be going into a job that doesn't pay very much compared to how much I could make doing something else, but I chose to go to university because I love literature and I wanted to widen my understanding of it with other people who share my enthusiasm. I can't afford to spend £25 a time on jeans because I don't have time to work enough for that. And ffs it's 10%, that's like £2.50 per pair of jeans, if you're that pissed off about £2.50 you have more to worry about than whether or not students are getting discounts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Franki wrote: »
    You think that people go into degrees just because they want more money? I'm going into my degree knowing that I'm going to be going into a job that doesn't pay very much compared to how much I could make doing something else, but I chose to go to university because I love literature and I wanted to widen my understanding of it with other people who share my enthusiasm. I can't afford to spend £25 a time on jeans because I don't have time to work enough for that. And ffs it's 10%, that's like £2.50 per pair of jeans, if you're that pissed off about £2.50 you have more to worry about than whether or not students are getting discounts.
    Well, people aren't going to university out of the goodness of their own hearts, are they? They know full well that they're gonna leave 3 or 4 years later with a shitload of debt, and they're gonna want to pay that off as quickly as possible. With tuition fees possibly going up beyond £5k a year in the next few years - the Government said the £3k cap will only apply until the end of this Parliament, remember - that debt burden will get worse.

    By your own admission, a £2.50 discount on a pair of £25 jeans isn't much. In that case, what is the point of the discount at all? Companies aren't doing it just cos they think students are lovely and cuddly - they're doing it cos they think students will be gullible enough to come in and buy their crap.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Well, people aren't going to university out of the goodness of their own hearts, are they? They know full well that they're gonna leave 3 or 4 years later with a shitload of debt, and they're gonna want to pay that off as quickly as possible. With tuition fees possibly going up beyond £5k a year in the next few years - the Government said the £3k cap will only apply until the end of this Parliament, remember - that debt burden will get worse.

    By your own admission, a £2.50 discount on a pair of £25 jeans isn't much. In that case, what is the point of the discount at all? Companies aren't doing it just cos they think students are lovely and cuddly - they're doing it cos they think students will be gullible enough to come in and buy their crap.
    Students are more likely to buy a lot in one go (because of student loan payments) so it makes more of a difference then. To the people it matters to, £2.50 is one more drink. To be honest, I don't buy clothes that often but when I do it's nice to know I can save a little bit for things like extra food

    To be honest, SG, just because you don't want to go to uni doesn't mean that everyone who goes to uni is only going to get themselves a better job. If I was doing that I would have done an education degree, but I'm not. I'm doing two degrees because I want to have had the experience of learning from some excellent lecturers who will teach me things I wouldn't otherwise have found out for myself.

    KHSS is right, you are bitter :/.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Franki wrote: »
    Students are more likely to buy a lot in one go (because of student loan payments) so it makes more of a difference then. To the people it matters to, £2.50 is one more drink. To be honest, I don't buy clothes that often but when I do it's nice to know I can save a little bit for things like extra food.
    Oh, don't get me wrong. I like a bargain just as much as everyone else. I just don't see any reason why students should specifically receive offers not available to anyone else.
    To be honest, SG, just because you don't want to go to uni doesn't mean that everyone who goes to uni is only going to get themselves a better job. If I was doing that I would have done an education degree, but I'm not.
    Money is always going to be a factor when it comes to university. The decision to introduce top-up fees and the like has made sure that's the case. People are not going to want to do a three-year degree, only to end up on the dole at the end, are they? They're doing it because they want to learn more or because they might need it for a specific career they have in mind. But money will be on their minds, no two ways about it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't need mine for my career at all. Like I said, if I was entirely career minded I would have done an education degree instead of an English degree and then a PGCE.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sure the 16-25 category probably earn on average a lot less than people older than that, which is probably the reason for rail cards etc. If you leave school at 16/18, your options are often limited and although it is possible to work your way up in an organisation and get a well paid job, chances are you're going to be stuck in something like minimum wage retail. Even if you choose to go on to study at uni, you're still going to be limited to min wage jobs, because those are mostly the only ones that want you part time. Therefore in the majority of cases (although not all), as a young person you're going to be earning less whatever you do, because you lack the qualifications and/or experience that will get you the higher paid jobs. Those things can only come with age, and since most 16-18 year olds are unlikely to have much experience in the workplace, they are going to be paid less, therefore will probably need more support.

    I think everyone doing the same job should be paid the same. Given the economic climate, the fact it has been and will continue to be very difficult for first time buyers to get on the property ladder, and the fact that the cost of living is constantly rising, it seems even more important that young people should be given a fair wage.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Why should students receive discounts not available to most of the population? No one forced them to study at university - why should they get favours from everyone else because of it?

    It's a method of profit maximisation (price discrimination). Don't think for a second OAP train ticket prices and student discounts are done out of kindness.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Franki wrote: »
    I'm sure you get more privileges being older that younger people don't as well.


    What, like getting taxed to fuck? Having to pay a mortgage? The only benefits to actually being over 18 are being able to drink and being able to watch 18 rated movies.



    The minimu wage is only an issue for people if they take a job that pays minimum wage. Yes I know some people won't have a choice about what sort of work they do, but for those who leave school and start a career, and don't end up working in a shop, minimum wage doesn't exist.

    If young people want to be paid the same then the government needs to scrap the perks available to young people. Why should I pay bucket loads a month and not get anything out of it whilst a 16 year old can earn the same but pay reduced tax and get money off travel, free condoms and everything else that goes with it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What reduced tax? I'm pretty sure I've been taxed like normal for ages.

    What really got me when I started working was earning £3.73 an hour to do the really shitty jobs, while people older than me earned £5 an hour to do the same jobs. That is the problem.

    I think the 16-25 railcard is a great idea, I am dreading the time when mine runs out though.

    Whowhere, surely you have benefitted from being a young person once? You can't just have bypassed it and gone straight from being 15 to ending up as a 30 year old. You can't have the benefits and then complain about them, although to be honest the only benefit I get from being 22 is the railcard - I never got student discount as I refused to pay £10 to join the NUS. To me, that £10 WAS extra food or a bit towards my rent (and not another drink).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't the idea of the staggered minimum wage to protect the older band rather than to hinder the young? In reality, most people are not on the minimum wage, so it doesn't make any difference, but some people in their lives will never make it off the minimum, and they are the ones who the increases help.

    Would you want to, at 25, be earning the same as you were at 16?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Olive wrote: »
    Isn't the idea of the staggered minimum wage to protect the older band rather than to hinder the young? In reality, most people are not on the minimum wage, so it doesn't make any difference, but some people in their lives will never make it off the minimum, and they are the ones who the increases help.

    Would you want to, at 25, be earning the same as you were at 16?


    I made £3 an hour at 16 as a glass collector and I clearly wouldn't want to make the same now. But why is it that if I went to do exactly the same job, I would now get £6 an hour or whatever the minimum wage is now?

    There are quite a lot of employers that only want to recruit people under 21 because they can pay them less. Surely that's not right.

    Not all people under 21 live with their parents and are just working for pocket money.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    xsazx wrote: »
    even if doing more hours than you a week, a 16 yr old wouldn't earn more than you?? especially when you're probs on £6 an hour and the average 16yr old is on £3.50 meaning for every day you're getting double them ... plus they're at school/college so hours are further limited

    Exactly this. When I was at McDonalds, which, granted, does pay quite a bit over minimum wage but not exactly great, I was earning as a base rate £4.85. Someone in the same position as me but who was 30-something was earning in the region of £6.50. I did MORE hours than he did, I worked harder and better than he did and HE got the promotion because I was a student. I was genuinely told that the reason I wasn't promoted was because "you'll be back off to uni in a few months", and I said to them if I didn't get it I wouldn't come back again.

    Incidentally, there were people that got promotions at uni/just before they left for uni/before they fucked off for long holidays.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Why should I pay bucket loads a month and not get anything out of it whilst a 16 year old can earn the same but pay reduced tax and get money off travel, free condoms and everything else that goes with it?

    16 year olds pay tax too. Well, those who earn enough money to do so.

    What reduced bus fares? Where I am, everyone pays adult fare after 16. Apart from those people who have bus passes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    I'm all for young people getting paid the same, on the caveat that student discount, young person's railcards, reduced bus fares and anything else similar are done away with.
    They discriminate against me because I'm older.

    It works both ways.

    Students are expected to live on a paltry student loan (or parents) and don't receive any income support / etc. Because of this, if you changed it as such, you would give students a much lesser income than what they receive if they're in a real job, but force them to pay full prices. Whilst this is good for the disgruntled workers who are annoyed that they don't get 10% off books if they spend over £100 at once, for the country it just puts people off going to education.

    Could you live on £3500 - £6000 a year?

    Besides, tax by definition isn't supposed to be you pay something and get something back. It's an unrequited payment. The government spends it where it needs spending most. Arguably, giving those in full time employment discounts on stuff isn't going to be the best need, because they will just then spend their extra income on luxuries, whereas as the other end students are more likely to drop out of their courses or drop essentials.

    That's why people who don't work get money as well. Because, on average, they're going to buy things they need to live, whereas giving it to some guy in a big house who is complaining about too many taxes will just as likely gamble it on whether it will rain today.

    The whole POINT of a taxation system is to redistribute equitably. If you are against that (and, if you think it through, that would be a daft position to take for you) then you sorely in need of an education as to the purpose of taxation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Time to give a nice fisking to ShyBoy's post...
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Besides, tax by definition isn't supposed to be you pay something and get something back. It's an unrequited payment. The government spends it where it needs spending most.
    No it doesn't. It wastes it shamelessly. It pisses money up against whichever wall is going to win it the next election. Just ask New Labour - why do you think they're desperate to employ as many people as possible in the public sector? It's not because they suddenly love us! Your average government couldn't run a bath, never mind run front-line public services properly. Far better to let individuals make the decisions for themselves.
    Arguably, giving those in full time employment discounts on stuff isn't going to be the best need, because they will just then spend their extra income on luxuries, whereas as the other end students are more likely to drop out of their courses or drop essentials.
    Will they? People can easily say no if they want to. If I see an item of clothing reduced from £25 to £20, it doesn't mean I'm guaranteed to buy it. Mind you, most people seem happy buying all sorts of crap - just pay a visit to any shopping mall or supermarket around Christmas time for proof.

    I do not deny that students have an incredibly difficult time making ends meet. As it happens, I'm one of two people who is helping my sister fund her time at university, so I have some idea what I'm on about. But students are far from the only group who have got it tough, especially in these times.
    That's why people who don't work get money as well. Because, on average, they're going to buy things they need to live, whereas giving it to some guy in a big house who is complaining about too many taxes will just as likely gamble it on whether it will rain today.
    Well, of course they are. Extending that argument, a person who is on Jobseeker's Allowance is unlikely to be spending their money on a new plasma television, even with a 2.5% cut in VAT on it.

    Besides, the guy who has a big house probably won't be complaining about paying too much in taxes - he'll be the one who's hired an accountant or lawyer to find legal loopholes to get out of paying his extortionate share. Did you know that, out of all those who are meant to pay tax at 40p in the pound, less than half actually do? The rest use legal loopholes in order to get out of paying the full amount. Hence why the Government's imminent introduction of a 45p tax rate shows New Labour are clearly detached from reality.
    The whole POINT of a taxation system is to redistribute equitably. If you are against that, then you sorely in need of an education as to the purpose of taxation.
    Well, I'm against using the tax system as a method for redistribution. I suppose I'm in need of re-education, according to your post. I view redistribution as nothing less than social engineering. A tax system should be in place purely to collect the money the government needs. Government should only take the amount of tax they need, deliver the services they're paid to deliver and shut the fuck up in the meantime.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sssshh SG, you are proper grumpy :p I know you've been to uni TWICE and left TWICE but come on, leave the poor students alone :p Actually, is it twice or three times? I forget...

    Mmmm. Anyway, I agree that students should get discounts. I'm no longer a student but I don't go about getting all arsey because I don't get my 10% off in Topshop! It doesn't make much of a difference anyway when you are earning a proper wage. As a student though, every penny counts.

    As for wages, I agree with it. When I was 15, I was earning £3 per hour. That did me. It wouldn't now. Also, with age, comes experience so why shouldn't us older people get paid more?
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