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It's not promoting unity - but then that's not the same thing as promoting divisiveness
or
You pays your money and takes your choice...
(though Stephen Green is right about Bendy Buses)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7681914.stm
So are you giving the whole "boohoo he hit me first" school kid argument?
Just because some Christians have done it (though personally, I have never seen a "you will burn in hell" poster on a bus), does not make it right for anyone else.
Like I said... Leave others be... Christian, Jew, atheist, Hindu, whatever... We all shit the same.
I disagree.
I think the wording suggests that a belief in God removes some happiness from your life.
In my eyes the message creates an 'us' and 'them' attitude. As somebody who came from the church originally, I found a lot of happiness there and found it comforting. "Rational" or not, my beliefs at the time were not founded from fear as the advert suggests.
It basically seems to put people in two camps... Those who worry and believe in God and those who are free from burden. I have seen some religious adverts saying the same thing.
Nobody needs telling how to be happy. That is called patronising.
And? How does that promote divisiveness?
I think they're wrong, but I don't think it causes any more divisiveness than people disagreeing on politics or anything else...
Either all such ads are wrong and divisive, or none are. Yet the only criticism I hear from some quarters is for the non-believers. No mention of the absolutely countless adverts that have appeared for many years by religious groups, and not a murmur of criticism for them.
Because it is suggesting one way is right and the other is wrong. One brings you happiness, one brings you misery.
Depends how the political advert is worded too? Politics can be divisive as well.
People complain all the time about religious groups.
I don't support faith schools as well as advertising, or anything else which divides people and/or gets their backs up. We should be learning from each other, not throwing rocks.
And? - that's what they believe, so why shouldn't they say it. It's level of divisiveness is so low it's like saying football is divisive and ought to be stopped. or perhaps as we're not agreeing The Site should be taken down as its not promoting unity between us...
You're version of divisiveness is obviously set at a much lower level than mine, people will disagree - that is a fact of life. I seriously doubt that this is going to lead to riots in the street, in fact I doubt it'll even be graffitied by militant christians (though it may be by bored kids)
Its frankly amazing to me that every religion claims their god(s) created the world and they all claim to have The One True God(s) on their side - I am not an atheist but also don't believe in any god because selecting one from a list of gods and saying *this one exists and the rest do not*
The advert itself is brilliant, just the right amount of bite to make people think about what religious stuff they see and hear and what they believe.
After reading all the arguments against atheism causing divisions, loss of moral life etc it really made me laugh... there really are no bad points or past evils to being an atheist other than 'you are not on my team' :rolleyes:
This is a silly argument though. Like I said, it's their money to waste on non-preaching - just the same as you might tell people to vote for 'none of the above' in an election. You would hope if someone doesn't believe in the policies of any of the parties they'd vote for RON or whatever without needing a sign saying 'all the parties are shit. don't vote.'.
The difference with religion is people love to bash on religion and religious types. There is a strong presumption that they are all intolerant fundamentalists. Aladdin said 'I don't believe you can be intolerant of intolerance'.
It's just a banner on a bus at the end of the day, but there are uglier sides to this anti-theism. In fact, that's a good way of putting it...
atheism is the lack of belief. That is 100% harmless. Anti-theism is a suspicion and dislike of all organised religion, which is often not harmless and is divisive and antagonising to those who are religious. Stunts such as mocking things religous people hold dear outside their place of worship are taken part in by antitheists who believe that it is there right as citizens in a free country, because religion is open to question.
But that completely ignores the point that it is going out to cause offense because someone doesn't believe what you believe. Just like how I would be offended by someone dressed in neo nazi attire shouting sig heil, I'd be offended by antitheists burning effagies of jesus / mohammed / whatever. Hell, even standing outside a primary school and shouting 'santa claus isn't real' is really in poor taste. It's not because you don't have the right to question other people's beliefs, but it's because you are not respecting their right to hold their beleifs.
Like you said, beliefs by themselves are harmless, it's beliefs linked to actions that are dangerous. And I don't believe the actions inspired by religion are even negative let alone dangerous. Despite me not being religious, I have to acknowledge that across the world religion has been a power for good. In many countries even today, the health care is provided because of some belief in religion, education, welfare... the list goes on.
There are uglier sides to religion especially when they are abused, but that's the same with anything. But antitheists want to justify their belief so strongly that there is no god or religion that they become blind to the good religion does, and only focus on the bad. Then, like zealots religious or non, they believe they are enlightened in some way and must 'save' everyone from religion (I believe the word you used was liberate).
Therein lies the hypocrisy which I can't stand. I don't like zealots trying to save me, but I find the zealots trying to save me from the other zealots trying to save me the most unbearable, because they don't believe in anything except that the other ones are wrong.
Do you go to your mates "there's probably no god, you should believe that and then you can be happy"? One should probably hope not as it would be quite rude (I mean if you have any mates who are say... Christian, or Hindu or Muslim).
I am not saying it should be banned... I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech (I argued for the point of the BNP having a platform in the NUS), I just don't like seeing it on the side of buses, the same with any other religious messages.
How tragic that millions of people don't get to fully explore the joys of sex; that they live tortured lives because they are attracted to people of the same gender; that they fear they will miss out on an afterlife or even be sent to the most horrible place imaginable to suffer for all eternity if they don't follow a strict set of rules that controls their lives. Etc etc etc...
Before anyone starts, I'm not saying that this does apply to all believers- many of them live happy lives within their faith. But others do not. And from my personal point of view, if those ads make even just one of those persons who is being suffocated by their religion think hard and eventually break free and live happier lives, those ads would be worth 100 times the effort and money put into them.
So most people behind these ads do indeed believe in something- something very good and positive indeed.
So's football for many people (though I'm rugger bugger)
We certainly have arguments about religion and with my friends I can be extremely rude. I'm agnostic though, so I wouldn't argue on that basis, but I don't mind people who do.
I just don't think it does any harm whatsoever
If it makes even one person question their faith it would be such a miracle that it would be indisputable proof of the existence of God...
Because considering that the ad hasn't made it to the streets yet, the total count for such ads stands roughly at this:
Religious advertisements on billboards and the media in Britain to date (estimate): 1000s
Atheist advertisements on billboards and the media in Britain to date (estimate): 0
So I think we can certainly tolerate a few such ads appear, for a change.
And exactly the same can be said of football. Indeed, I have met many a football fan whose passion for his club and the game in general would put many a fervent religious person to shame.
So no difference there at all.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/blaspheming-buses-will-burn-in-hell,-say-christians-200810221343/
Fair enough. I think the point though is that a lot of people who are religious have simply never really thought about it that much. And if that sounds arrogant, the fair enough, but it's backed up with statistics that show that the majority of people (religiously and politically) never venture far from the beliefs they were brought up with. It's just a tradition, or a moral code, or the way you were brought up, or a way of life, and so getting them to think about it and challenge it can only be a good thing. Either you'll end up with more people abandoning particular religions because they realised that they don't agree with it, or you'll end up with more informed religious people, and I don't think anyone would argue that that either of these outcomes would be a bad thing.
Oh, and someone who abandoned their religion "when their mum died" hasn't abandoned religion for rational reasons, they've abandoned it for emotional reasons. Why would you assume that reverting to the religion they were brought up in was based on any more rational reasons than leaving it in the first place?
Do you feel the same way about political billboards? If not, why not?
And incidentally, how could you possibly say "I'm an atheist" without effectively be saying "everyone who believes in god is wrong?" That's always going to be the implication of making such a statement, unless you believe there can be some sort of factual relativism. Any statement of fact is the same, and yet you only pick on one that religions object to. Why is that? If I say "human activity is causing global warming," or even make a billboard encouraging people to cut down on their carbon usage, then why are you not calling me arrogant for daring to make a statement that other people don't agree with, because I'm effectively saying that they are wrong?
To be honest I phrased it badly - he left it after the death of his Mom, not solely due to her death, but because he was sent to a private school and was heavily influenced by one of his atheist teachers into thinking in a 'rationale' way. he remained an atheist until well into his thirties (including a period spent in the trenches)
His return to Christianity was the result of his thinking about it in a philosophical way and coming to the conclusion God existed.
You may not agree with his conclusions, but he was an extremely bright man (as of course is Dawkins), capable of critical and original thought, and whilst there is an emotional bent to his work (as their is with Dawkins) there is also a lot of thought put into it.
On your point about more thoughtful Christians I'd agree. I read this morning that at least some of the funding is coming from moderate Christian groups - delighted that people are finding religion relevant
which is the factually correct statement - though i also like the quaker adverts because they don't force anything on you, they just put a saying on their advert which can normally apply to religious and non religious people
"Eat More Porridge"?
Happy now, Aladdin?
It's already been posted in this thread. On this page.