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You're completely right, and I'd be a massive liar if I said I have never bought anything from China - I doubt you could find more than a handful of people who have.
As to the industrialisation of their country, that is a mixed bag. Much like with us conditions in factories were hideous and now seem to be gradually improving. People are getting richer which does give them more options.
But having said that it is still tightly controlled by the Party and freedoms are very restricted. And conditions in factories making legit goods may be improving but the black market there is thriving and conditions there are routinely dire.
There's no lack of alternative cheap labour - anything that sours the relationship between a country like the US and China could cause them major problems and further to that something like the Olympics is a very valid political vehicle either for protest or to confirm China as an equal to other major nations.
If the Olympics pass with little protest and great success I can't help feeling you'll see considerably less understanding of China's human rights records and far more people that just remember it as a nice country that can put on a good show...
Some companies are already moving out, Cambodia is the new cheapest place to have a factory.
Yes ...and i'm sure theres more. America England or fucking Birmingham council ...not mentioned for any other reason than ...why China ...is it cos it's fashionable ...the hot potatoe at the moment or ...cos he has a personal connection.
It comes across in a bit of a condescending manner when the title thread is ...i protested did you ...it could have read ...did anyone else.
If i find it a bit smug ...a bit condescending ...then i'm going to debate the motives ...or are we all supposed to nod politely now and just agree?
See it's fine to protest about these human rights abuses but is it then fine to stand to one side and watch someone get a good beating from the old bill ...other thread ...cos it then hgets a bit hypocritical ...i'll wave my arms about and shout ...but i aint going to realy get involved.
Agreed, trying to put out the flame will have achieved precisely nothing. The flame is a symbol of the olympics, not the country hosting it.
So go and stamp your feet and wave your arms outside their office ...outside their houses ...to stop them from making decisions like this in the future.
China is just a nation climbing out of a dark pit called the past.
who decided where the olympics should be held, the organisers, who also stated it'd help improve china's state of human rights in allowing it to happen
To be fair, when did the olympic comittee pick China? It was at least 5 years ago. When was the first time most of us heard about Tibet? Few months ago? I bet the Chinese kept it all very quiet when the comittee were picking who to host the games.
Mate, if you heard about Tibet a few months ago then you've pretty much proved to me the value of every protest against the Olympics in China and against the Olympic torch.
Seriously, a few months ago?
Please tell me you've at least heard of what happened in Tiananmen Square
Exactally.
I remember hte olympics being about Unity and overcoming division and conflict. North/South Korean athletes etc.
This was honestly, IMHO, a pointless venture. Why not put your efforts into doing something, like, I dunno, protesting or petitioning the Government about sanctions on China? Reducing our dependance on Chinese trade? Things that, you know, might Achieve something?
Also as for people not hearing about Tibet until recently, well, how many people could place Tibet on a map? Let's be honest, this IS NOT an issue which validates these protests. It is an issue of eduction and making the vast majority of twunts in this country sit up and take notice of world political events.
So if I'd jumped in and got beaten up as well then my protest would have been ok?
Does that make bong an honorary Tibetan?
Although having looked at China in some depth, it's far better if we get close to them and influence them internally (as is already happening, albeit slowly) than shut them off and alienate them. For some quick and nasty evidence of this, look at the middle east. Some countries we make friends with even if they have a shit record on human rights have started cleaning up their act. Some countries we said were evil etc. and had 'weapons of mass destruction' become alienated (can't think of the proper word) and become a rogue state, increasingly funding their own defence spending etc.
I mean just think of a nasty dog. The way to teach it how to behave is by being patient, positive reinforcement when it does something right and the cold shoulder when it does something wrong. Not beating it over the head with a stick until it starts miraculously behaving.
If we look at China, most of the population still lives in rural areas. However the socioeconomic landscape is changing incredibly quickly. Their 'real income' on average doubles every 10 years, access to information is increasing, there is increasing dissent and questioning inside China about the 'right' way to run the country.
I mean what do people expect China to say. 'Oh ok then, we're going to stop being horrible now'? China is moving forwards, that doesn't help the plight of the tibetans now but I doubt extinguishing the olympic torch does either.
If you are suggesting destabilising China through infiltration, or cultural force, that may work. Western Culture destabilised the USSR (Although, it hardly improved the situation for most Russians, but temporarily removed Russia as a world super power, which I guess was a kindof Victory because it stopped it ruling over a ton of other countries. Which are now mostly up shit creek). But if you are suggesting we try to befreind and influence China, that will NOT WORK. The Mid Eatern countries you refer to are not the second world super power. Not even close. They also don't have the world largest armed forces to back them up. China is too powerful - people befreind China because then they have a friend with mass influence and power - and don't mind this security if China wants al ittle say in what they do. People don't befriend China to change China. Russia is losing influence with China and the two nations, formerly quite close, whilst still putting on a smiley face, are growing more distant. China cares not for what other nations think if she is willing to distance herself from Russia.
We can destabilise China from inside - we will not influence her - we can only cause dissent in the ranks - which will inevitably mean we get alot of people killed in doing so - is this worth the cost of crashing a huge economic world player? Think - if we do it - will there REALLY be any benefit? One can hardly say Putin is more Liberal than the fromer Soviet dictators - and the Crime caused in Russia - which now dominates world crime - do we need a Chinese Mafia too? The world economy, broken - I don't think, any way we look at it - removing the Chinese system will help.
It won't happen overnight, but it's over time. Many people understandably want us to denounce China and block all exports / imports, nuke them or whatever. People get upset, and want a reaction. Unfortunately that would only be counter productive (as we saw in Northern Ireland, no?). The best way forward would to be 'like hippies' as I like to think about it. Realise we're the same. Same people, same humans, same wants, desires out of life. Same love for our family, pride of our heritage.
Just like we are with Iraq and Afghanistan, although the average joe probably thinks of them as stinking terrorists. The olympics puts pressure on China as it is, to show it's not barbaric under the gaze of the world. Why do people want to shout and get angry at the olympics?
That's just my perspective of it, that in order to change China's ways the best way is to become closer to them, as culturely and social homogenity follows political closeness.
No, the olympics in reality dont put any pressure on China to do anything different. In fact because of the olympics they have been kicking thousands of people out of their homes to make way for stadiums etc.
What does make an impact is while the spot light is on them the world is shown a different view point, is shown what China is really like rather than the image they want to project.
I dont want trade sanctions, and I certainly dont want nukes or the military. I want China embarressed by the games, I would love all the world leaders to decide not to attend the opening ceremony, that would be non-violent but a very stark message.
I will be honest, what are the chances?
With big countries like America and Europe often practicing things as bad as China, just not on such a grand scale, lets be honest...
No-one with any serious influence will boycott.
The chances are obviously higher now because of the protests (granted they are still low).
France is talking about not attending, and Clinton has urged Bush not to go - so it is an issue which is being raised.
exactly and the issue being raised (in public rather than private) is a good consolation
I doutb America will boycott after they missed the Soviet Olympics.
France is a pointless country, which very few people even take notice of due to thier huge historical histroy of failing.
I only admire them for a few things. None of which give internation influence, except possibly over Britain in about 40 years. As they have huge amounts of Nuclear Power.
I dont think anyone is talking about either France, the US or another country pulling out of the games, just that their leaders wont attend the opening ceremony.
Even the fact that some world leaders are discussing it is highly embarressing for the Chinese.
Wonder if they will have a Military Parade too? Those are always good. I sadly doubt it, but it would be GREAT TV.
I love watching Russian documentaries from thier channels on thier Military. Why don't we have these?
Anyway, back on topic, I honestly doubt China will give 2 flying fucks if some World Leaders don't attend. It won't stop people going to the games, it won't stop anything really. A little Political Turmoil. China has delt with worse under Mao.
Attending a protest with like minded people ...yes i would expect you to jump in to help an injured person at some risk to yourself ...i think it's called solidarity.
I get the impression they do, they are sending out spokesmen now, something they have never done in the past. Granted they are almost uniformally rubbish but it does mark a definite change in their attitude towards PR.
Well thats a lesson learnt for me, if I knew he would feel better if I was beaten up next to him I would have gladly jumped in.
:yeees: