Rape is a 'myth' says BNP bloke

Former Member

I don't really know what you're trying to say but I'm not sure how that's relevant because we're not talking about extremes.

Former Member

Indrid Cold wrote: »

That risk unfortunately exists, yes. But it doesn't excuse not doing what you can to prevent.

Let's imagine two extremes:
1)You can prevent most rapes, and have all the ones that happen go unpunished.
2)You can not prevent any rapes, but all the ones that happen will be punished.

Which of the two extremes do you think would be better for society as a whole?

neither of those extremes makes any sense whatsoever in relation to rape, so it's a pointless choice really. Are you suggesting that most rapes can be prevented? If so, how?

Indrid Cold

Knee High Stripy Socks wrote: »

I don't really know what you're trying to say but I'm not sure how that's relevant because we're not talking about extremes.

Extremes help people to realise which of two things is more important. In this case, prevention VS punishment.
If you think having as much as possible of prevention with no punishment is better than having as much as possible of punishment with no prevention, then you think prevention is more important than punishment. And the other way around.

katralla wrote: »

neither of those extremes makes any sense whatsoever in relation to rape, so it's a pointless choice really. Are you suggesting that most rapes can be prevented? If so, how?

I'm not, it's only a thinking method based on imaginary circumstances. Read above.

Former Member

Knee High Stripy Socks wrote: »

I'm all for people being made aware of the dangers of drinking too much, putting yourself in dangerous situations (not that one necessarily causes the other but ykwim), but if it is done as an "official" thing, or a govt campaign or something then there really is the risk of women who have been raped in one of the situations that they have been warned against not being taken seriously and perhaps even blamed for the rape. Which isn't good. Can you see that?

I see exactly what you are saying and its a perfectly valid point. Obviously something like this would need to be handled carefully and be well thought out as the last thing anyone would want is a negative outcome like you've mentioned. Thats why I advocate more awareness raising, for example the advice already posted on this website.

Former Member

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Indrid Cold

girl with sharp teeth wrote: »

The ONLY way women can prevent themselves being raped is to lock themselves up with no contact with the outside world.

Honestly, what is the next reasonable precaution to take? Wear a burkha? Don't go anywhere without an armed escort? Don't go anywhere at all?

Read "prevent" as "lower chances". I'm not so good at expressing my thoughts with words.

Former Member

Indrid Cold wrote: »

Extremes help people to realise which of two things is more important. In this case, prevention VS punishment.
If you think having as much as possible of prevention with no punishment is better than having as much as possible of punishment with no prevention, then you think prevention is more important than punishment. And the other way around.

Ok, I see what you're getting at there, so we should think of ways to PREVENT MEN from RAPING WOMEN (and men), note my emphasis there, rather than the emphasis so far in this thread of women preventing men from raping them.

Former Member

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Former Member

If you're born to a woman with no male partner or father in the household, or brothers, or uncles, or male delivery driver for your grocery, then yeah, hermitting might work. phew, lessonp learned girls.

Indrid Cold

katralla wrote: »

Ok, I see what you're getting at there, so we should think of ways to PREVENT MEN from RAPING WOMEN (and men), note my emphasis there, rather than the emphasis so far in this thread of women preventing men from raping them.

Exactly. And the way to prevent a crime lies in the possible criminal being deterred, which can happen by the possible victim as well as other ways.

girl with sharp teeth wrote: »

But living as a recluse would also lower chances.

Have you seen I, Robot?
I'd say not getting wasted is an acceptable "sacrifice", while living as a recluse either.

Former Member

BlackArab wrote: »

I see exactly what you are saying and its a perfectly valid point. Obviously something like this would need to be handled carefully and be well thought out as the last thing anyone would want is a negative outcome like you've mentioned. Thats why I advocate more awareness raising, for example the advice already posted on this website.

:hyper: :thumb:

Former Member

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Indrid Cold

In any case, it's obvious this discussion has hit a wall. This is the point where I take my leave, I think I've said all I could say anyway.

Former Member

Knee High Stripy Socks wrote: »

I didn't mean anyone on here, I was thinking in a court situation and the rapist's (defendant? I don't know the terms) lawyer or the judge or the jury thinking that.

:thumb: OK see your point, IMO there does need to be more awareness amongst the general public about this. I always assumed opinions blaming women came from chauvinistic men but its disturbing how many people, male or female share these views. I remember a French woman expressing the opinion that the way women in this country dressed on a Saturday night, they only have themselves to blame for rape. I was outraged at this but this has been expressed to me since by a few other women when I've discussed this subject.

I'm not sure how we can change opinions like this but we need a massive effort.

Former Member

Indrid Cold wrote: »

Exactly. And the way to prevent a crime lies in the possible criminal being deterred, which can happen by the possible victim as well as other ways.

The emphasis through this entire thread has been the victim of ONE circumstance of rape. If we take the theft analogy it's like, everytime car theft was brought up, people bleeting on about 306 owners setting the code to their immobiliser to the numbers from their registration plate.

Indrid Cold

girl with sharp teeth wrote: »

I've read the Asimov novel. I'm not sure what your point is though?

Dunno if it's the same as the movie. In the movie, the robots thought that the best way to prevent people being harmed is to make them stay at home. Which is the same as what you're saying. The answer in the story wasn't to let go of the robots' law to prevent people from coming to harm though (as seems to be what you're suggesting in a way) but to put a limit to it. And I don't think saying "Don't get so wasted" is a bad thing to say.

Skive

katralla wrote: »

People do HAVE that opinion though, an opinion I think is demonstrated in this thread.

Go on then, where?

Nobody has demonstrated anything of the sort in this thread.

Former Member

One thing we can do is raise the awareness of the other kinds of rapes that occur. When we think of the violent stranger rape scenario, we are all immediately sure of the criminal, the crime and the victim. Here we are all sorry for the victim, and feel disgusted by the criminal. In other circumstances of rape there seems to be a less emphatic reaction.

For instance, I was once told a story by an intelligent, professional, young woman. She was having dinner with friends of her hers and her boyfriends, they'd all been friends for about three years, lots of trust between them all. The young woman found herself in the kitchen with the other lady's boyfriend, having a chat, normal friendly situation. She was sat on the surface by the sink and he basically pushed up her skirt and inserted himself into her there, silently. She didn't scream or run or do anything but say "get off" and push away on his chest. She didn't want to draw attention as the other people were in the next room, she just didn't want it to be happening. The next time there was a friendly get together she didn't go and told her rapist on the phone that she wasn't coming because he raped her, not in front of anyone else, no suggesting that she was going to report him or anything, just that she was no longer his friend. His reaction was to tell his friends she had accused him of raping her like that, and for the friends to turn against her and make aggressive phone calls to her, telling her she should take it back.

This is the sort of rape that I think the guy in the OP was refferring to. And one where I think people generally are less sure how to react to it, unlike the reaction we have to the first scenario. One of the ways we can try to 'prevent' rape might be to make this quiet scanario seem as abherrant as the first suggestion (to everyone I mean, even if we all think it's just as vile)

Former Member

katralla wrote: »

One thing we can do is raise the awareness of the other kinds of rapes that occur. When we think of the violent stranger rape scenario, we are all immediately sure of the criminal, the crime and the victim. Here we are all sorry for the victim, and feel disgusted by the criminal. In other circumstances of rape there seems to be a less emphatic reaction.

For instance, I was once told a story by an intelligent, professional, young woman. She was having dinner with friends of her hers and her boyfriends, they'd all been friends for about three years, lots of trust between them all. The young woman found herself in the kitchen with the other lady's boyfriend, having a chat, normal friendly situation. She was sat on the surface by the sink and he basically pushed up her skirt and inserted himself into her there, silently. She didn't scream or run or do anything but say "get off" and push away on his chest. She didn't want to draw attention as the other people were in the next room, she just didn't want it to be happening. The next time there was a friendly get together she didn't go and told her rapist on the phone that she wasn't coming because he raped her, not in front of anyone else, no suggesting that she was going to report him or anything, just that she was no longer his friend. His reaction was to tell his friends she had accused him of raping her like that, and for the friends to turn against her and make aggressive phone calls to her, telling her she should take it back.

This is the sort of rape that I think the guy in the OP was refferring to. And one where I think people generally are less sure how to react to it, unlike the reaction we have to the first scenario. One of the ways we can try to 'prevent' rape might be to make this quiet scanario seem as abherrant as the first suggestion (to everyone I mean, even if we all think it's just as vile)

This is an appalling story and I totally agree with your suggestion of awareness raising K. I know all rapists are scum but I can't but feel sometimes that slimeballs like this deserve extra punishment for the betrayal of trust.

Former Member

It isn't me by the way, though I do know the four people who were in the house personally, and I also know the 'friends' who turned against the young woman who was raped and decided it would be a great idea to make repeated phone calls to her house over christmas and then tell her visiting family the story of how she should change her accusation once she was too upset to answer her own phone anymore. Shocking that these 'friends' are men and women, presumably men and women who would be horrified if the victim had been raped in a dark alleyway walking home, but obviously not so horrified here. The victim works in a women's crisis centre and has been excused from meetings when one person from the local rape therapy place is involved because it's the person who talked to her after the incident. One woman in her work place knows the situation and still finds it acceptable to tell her to 'pull herself together' and not leave the meetings, even though their boss has said it's ok. The woman in the workplace is obviously not as sure of the criminal/crime/victim and severity here, even though she works with scared, abused and running away women herself. It's this attitude to rape and the role of the victim to do more, or to get over it, or whatever that gets me so het up. I know lots of these stories, lots of them, too many.

I don't have the answer, or think that women shouldn't try to keep themselves safe, I just get frustrated that that seems to be the first and only solution presented to the issue of rape.

Former Member

katralla wrote: »

It isn't me by the way, though I do know the four people who were in the house personally, and I also know the 'friends' who turned against the young woman who was raped and decided it would be a great idea to make repeated phone calls to her house over christmas and then tell her visiting family the story of how she should change her accusation once she was too upset to answer her own phone anymore. Shocking that these 'friends' are men and women, presumably men and women who would be horrified if the victim had been raped in a dark alleyway walking home, but obviously not so horrified here. The victim works in a women's crisis centre and has been excused from meetings when one person from the local rape therapy place is involved because it's the person who talked to her after the incident. One woman in her work place knows the situation and still finds it acceptable to tell her to 'pull herself together' and not leave the meetings, even though their boss has said it's ok. The woman in the workplace is obviously not as sure of the criminal/crime/victim and severity here, even though she works with scared, abused and running away women herself. It's this attitude to rape and the role of the victim to do more, or to get over it, or whatever that gets me so het up. I know lots of these stories, lots of them, too many.

I don't have the answer, or think that women shouldn't try to keep themselves safe, I just get frustrated that that seems to be the first and only solution presented to the issue of rape.

It's difficult to respond to this as the attitude of the 'friends' and her colleague is incomprehensible for me. I do understand your anger now but now I'm wondering how people can be made more aware if even the woman she works with doesn't get it and she is more aware of these issues than the average person. God I'm depressed now.

Former Member

I knew there would be a good time to re-introduce the Water flogging torture, this man deserves it!

What a crap excuse for a human being...

Former Member

katralla wrote: »

It isn't me by the way, though I do know the four people who were in the house personally, and I also know the 'friends' who turned against the young woman who was raped and decided it would be a great idea to make repeated phone calls to her house over christmas and then tell her visiting family the story of how she should change her accusation once she was too upset to answer her own phone anymore. Shocking that these 'friends' are men and women, presumably men and women who would be horrified if the victim had been raped in a dark alleyway walking home, but obviously not so horrified here. The victim works in a women's crisis centre and has been excused from meetings when one person from the local rape therapy place is involved because it's the person who talked to her after the incident. One woman in her work place knows the situation and still finds it acceptable to tell her to 'pull herself together' and not leave the meetings, even though their boss has said it's ok. The woman in the workplace is obviously not as sure of the criminal/crime/victim and severity here, even though she works with scared, abused and running away women herself. It's this attitude to rape and the role of the victim to do more, or to get over it, or whatever that gets me so het up. I know lots of these stories, lots of them, too many.

I don't have the answer, or think that women shouldn't try to keep themselves safe, I just get frustrated that that seems to be the first and only solution presented to the issue of rape.

I did bow out of the thread, but if you look back a lot of pages I made a fairly comprehensive post with lots of different aspects. I think the only reason the women protecting themselves argument gets discussed and seems like the only solution proposed is because a lot of people pick up on it and argue that advising that implies women who don't take care are bringing it on themselves.

Here's my post: http://vbulletin.thesite.org.uk/showthread.php?p=2135765#post2135765

Former Member

I'm so glad Katralla has posted all those posts she has in this thread as she manages to express my own views on the issue so well in a much more coherant way than I could!

I didn't want to let this thread go by without commenting but I'm not very good at making my points.

Former Member

Reading back through the thread and thinking about the way it's common to speak we, as a society, seem to use forceful sex in our language too. I say 'fuck you' as a retort, and thinking baout it now, it's a bit of a vile thing to say, wishing forced sex on someone or suggesting it as a punishment forr whatever that person has said or done to offend. I'm sure there are other examples too, ways in which we kinda (dunno the right word here) normalify rape. Maybe by using the 'fuck you' phrase we down play the idea of rape in the public sphere and not exactly breed rapists but, something to do with the way in which our language affects our behaviour as language is the way we think.

Indrid Cold

We also say "I'll kill you" when we're mad, by that logic I'd consider it to be worse than saying "fuck you".

Former Member

Linguistic determinisim

Former Member

Skive wrote: »

Now according to MOK, the sate their in doesn't make them any more vunerable?

Without the rapist there is no rape. It's a fairly simple concept.

By suggesting that a drunk has made themsleves vulnerable you are applying some blame for what happened to them. It is precisely that thinking which leads to some cases failing.

The only person to blame for a rape is the perpetrator.

Indrid Cold

Just as much as leaving your car unlocked applies some blame to you that it got stolen. We've said this before, I'm being an idiot be repeating myself and others.

But anyway: The above is fact, yet no car theft trial fails because of it. This shows that the problem is in rape trials, not in giving advice.

Former Member

Indrid Cold wrote: »

Just as much as leaving your car unlocked applies some blame to you that it got stolen. We've said this before, I'm being an idiot be repeating myself and others.

So you do actually think that if a person leaves their legs open, there is some blame on them if they get raped? :eek: :crazyeyes :shocking: