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Does seem to be the way lawyers are getting rapists off doesn't it? Alcohol is certainly a big factor in rapists getting away with their crimes.
In the past women were told don't wear short skirts or you'll be raped and lo and behold women in short skirts got raped and their rapists got away with it.
Now women are told you shouldn't drink or you might be raped - and lo and behold women who are drunk are raped and the rapist gets away with it.
Wonder what will be next? 'That dirty slut left the house in broad daylight - she was just asking for it'...
:banghead:
That's right because wearing a short skirt often breaks down your defenses and results in the loss of control, memory, consciousness.
I know what you saying but the comparrison's limited.
It's alright for me to say to other blokes to go steady on the drink in town becuase it increase the chances of them being a victim of violent crime.
But when I say similar things in regard to women and rape, I'm sexist or I think they're to blame when they do get raped??
Sort it out ffs.
I think that probably one of the most important things we can do.
"To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting force-feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence."
A girl/woman may wear trousers and be teetotal and get raped, are there other lessons? For instance, what are the lessons a wife can learn to not get raped by her husband?
Of course it is. Of course a lot of that is because there is an assumption that girls who are drunk probably wanted it but that isn't the only reason.
Girls who drunk have less chance of remembering the incident clearly, they're easier to be steered into a situation by a would be rapist and for those reasons they're a more attractive target for a rapist.
Nobody's saying that's right though.
You obviously think girls being told that respobsible drinking could lessen the chance of rape works negatively against women in the long run. I don't think it has to.
None.
As with other crimes your never going to get rid of rape completely, especially in circumstance like that.
In such situations prevention isn't the answer, a good rate of conviction is.
And because some women jurors are less likely to find a man guilty in this instance because they themselves believe they are too "clever" to get themselves into a situation like that. I read that somewhere, sorry I cant remember where.
Just the same as the advice given out on this very website says when meeting someone off the internet be sensible, check in, don't get ratarsed - it's just about giving yourself a reasonable level of protection. There are a lot of men and women who often throw caution to the wind and one can only imagine that the predatory rapists will target those individuals who aren't in control of all their faculties.
It's only one aspect to it and as many have pointed out a lot of rape occurs by someone you know where no alcohol is involved, but being sensible about how safe you are and being in control of your own situation helps in a lot of situations, not just against rape - assault, theft, etc.
I havn't been targetting women specifically in regards to alcohol. Maybe you missed it. I'll quote myself.
This focus of this discussion is about rape though, not general violent crime so that's what I've been adressing.
Still.
There are certain demographics that more at risk from certain crimes than others. I don't think it's wrong to tailor advice to different people based on the risks they face, it's common sense I would have though.
That is as long as it doesn't negatively impact on people judgements of those who do end up beomes victims.
It's alright for me to tell a my mate to take it steady in a certain part of town for fear of getting a kicking, but wrong for me to tell a girl to take it steady in case she's a victim of rape?
Exactly.
Except that being drunk is used as a defence for rape.
The argument isn;t that "she made herself vulnerable and he took advantage and so should be strung up" - it "she was drunk and so happy to do anything"...
I understand that point of view and it is wrong for defendants to use such a defence, but I think what me and skive have been trying to say (sorry if I'm putting words in skive's mouth) is the other side, that one way to prevent some rapes would be to encourage everyone to be more sensible with their alcohol consumption so they don't put themselves in a vulnerable position.
It's common sense but you only have to go out on any night of the week to see that there are so many people who do 'throw caution to the wind' as I put it earlier, and put themselves in a vulnerable position.
What is needed, is either a change in the law on how consent is obtained which frankly isn't going to happen, or education telling people that getting so drunk you cant remember what you're doing isn't the best way to play it if you want to stay safe.
I regularly used to come across young, underage girls laid out on parks in the middle of the night because they're wasted on cheap wine. Hardly a sensible night out.
Which is akin to suggesting that being drunk, in some way, makes you responsible for what has happened and therefore it's a legitimate defence.
It would be better, and more effective, for rapists to understand the concept of the word "no" or for some people to realise that having sex with someone incapable of giving a clear "yes" is more akin to rape.
I sit fuck.
If I leave my sat nav on display when I park up and come back to find it's been nicked, it doesn't mean I'm in anyway repsobsible for the theft.
I would know in future however, how to lessen the chance of another one being nicked again.
Suggesting ways in which people can reduce the risk of bein a victim of crime doesn't automatically suggest that if you do become a victim it's somehow their fault.
More effective? How do you know that?
Anyway why can't you can't have both? Women educated on the ways to lessent the risk of rape and lads taught how to have more respect and to make sure they've got consent?
As a violent crime why shouldn't rape be included?
but raping someone is completely different to stealing something. Youre not stealing sex off someone if you rape them.
If someone doesnt give a shit whether you say yes or no then it wont matter if youre drunk or in a short skirt or not. If you DO give a shit or not, then this situation is unlikely to even arise.
The only thing that makes a difference about being drunk or wearing a skimpy outfit is the fact that the courts are more likely to disbelieve you, not that you wont get raped, and thats the point.
Of course, but it's fine for the analogy I was making. They're both crimes resulting in victims. The point was it's ok to advise people how to lessen the risk of becomeing a victims of crime, as long as that crime isn't rape.
Why?
Drink makes people vunerable and therefore drunk girls do become more of a target. Are you denying that?
Bollocks. A drunk woman is easier to rape and a more attractive target to any would be rapist, stranger or aquaintance. Again I don't see how you really deny that.
Being drunk increases the chances of you becoming a victim of ALL violent crime.
As for the drunkeness of the victim being used as an excuse to get defendants off, making the judgement that a girl must have consented purely on the fact that a she was drunk is very wrong.
More should be done by the police to collect evidence but in situations occur where the only evidence is his word against hers than alcohol must be taken into consideration - in the sense that if she admits she has very poor recollection of the incident than the case become very weak.
Unfortuantely the innocent until prooven guilty means that a woman must proove she didn't consent but I don't see any better way around it.
Until then I don't think advice on how to avoid being raped is bad thing - certainly no worse than giving advice on how to possibly avoid other crimes.
You just have to go and look at the figures really, or even better shoot down to A&E on a friday and saturday night.
But it has been shown (I don't have a source) that rapists tend to target women who are less likely to be believed for whatever reason. So whilst it's true that the courts are less likely to believe you if you do these things it can also be true that you make yourself more likely to be the one a rapist choses as their victim.
I really don't think the problem lies with these women.
http://www.thesite.org.uk/homelawandmoney/law/victims/survivingsexualassault
Because it is an article about surviving sexual assault and what to do if you are a victim of sexual assault and yet it has a massive emphasis on how to "stay safe", like drink less alcohol. It's kind of reads to me like, "well you're a bit stupid if you were sexually assaulted, you shouldn't have been doing these things on our list like drinking alcohol in the first place".
The very nature of alcohol makes people vunerable. I don't really see how you can deny that.
Where does it say anything of the sort. That's you putting your own twist on it.
I can't see anything wrong with the article.
My experiences on a friday/saturday night in town woudl suggest that not all of them do. I quite often see young girls absolutely paraletic or passed out. Now according to MOK, the sate their in doesn't make them any more vunerable?
No problem lies with any woman. The problem lies with the rapist, but that's not to say that advice to women on how to possibly avoid getting in a dangerous situation is a bad idea.