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I resent the anti-male sentiment, tbh. Trying to have a well reasoned debate and then that comes out.
Turning this into a women vs men debate is just going to stir up hostilities while missing the actual issues. The issues being as I see them:
Prevention of rape
- culture / increase in alcohol consumption making women more vulnerable
- sexual boundaries being lowered as I think skive pointed out; sexual liberation
- lack of inter-sex respect, though this isn't a new phenomenon
Prosecution of rapists
- lack of support for victims (so they often don't come forward)
- lack of evidence (evidence gathering techniques sometimes poor)
- courts putting undue stress on victims (could be solved with specialist rape trials)
- joe public's opinion on what constitutes rape (that it's not rape if you're not screaming and held at knifepoint)
Rehabilitation of rapists / sex offenders (as they often do go on to commit more sexual crimes)
- lack of 'help' either psychological of physiological (i.e. voluntary sterilisation); the idea is even offensive to some that the rapist should get any help. But it's the same with a lot of criminals, prison does not make them stop in a lot of cases.
- generally poor tracking of those on parole
If anyone disagrees with me or thinks I've missed anything out (I no doubt have) feel free to pick me up on it. (nicely please
I've seen so many times in these debates comments about men or women or whatever but it's completely missing the point that it's not about men vs women, it's about society vs rapists. One could speculate that a childs mother could have as much to do with their development and any later sexual deviancy which could lead to rape, so plainly placing the blame on men for being rapists, or women for getting drunk gets nobody anywhere.
I think really given the state of affairs and the amount of money wasted, the government or the law people (I don't know how it works) should hire a thinktank to properly examine the issues surrounding rape. We know most rape is from someone you know - but we also know a lot of rapists have had issues in their developmental years and sometimes formed very negative ideas about women. I'm not an expert though - which is why we need some very clever people to look at this, and state what the problem is and how can we effectively fix it.
i was being comical.
Ah sorry, but my point stands in a general sense
in response to the idea that we should teach girls how not to be raped, so yes, it was a perfectly reasonable reply. And just as I don't assume anyone posting here blames women for their rapes, I am not anti-man.
The change in attitudes we have seen over the past few decades have been one where men no longer see women as their property, and as such, rape rates have gone down. Rape reporting rates, on the other hand, have rocketed, which skews the statistics. Do you not think it's slightly coincidental that the rise of rape reporting (and therefore rape statistics) increased in line with the rise in feminism, and the social change that women are no longer the property of men? This is before we even mention the sexual abuse of children, which is a whole other cat to let out of the bag as far as reporting goes. Don't try and pin this on sexual promiscuity, because the most socially conservative countries in the world are the ones where individual women are raped daily, again and again, whether they want to recognise it or not. Countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan with the stupidly low rape rates their governments claim, yet a woman can't even leave the house without permission from whichever man rules her life (her father, or even her son in some cases). Even in America, there are statistics to suggest that the most socially conservative so-called red states have higher instances of rape.
Now I don't think that a more promiscuous society leads to less rape, certainly not in a causal sense. However, I think any society in which a man is less likely to get caught, which is almost always the case the more socially conservative (and male-dominated) a society is, is almost certainly going to see more instances of rape (and a lower rate of reporting). That's why soldiers rape. They can get away with it in a way they couldn't in normal society. And "getting away with it" doesn't necesseraly even mean in the legal sense. We live in a society where rapists are the lowest of the low, whereas in some other societies where "women know their place," there is no guilt for the rapist, no social exclusion, and exactly these things for the victim in some cases. I think rape rates are influenced almost entirely by social attitudes. The whole "she was gagging for it" is merely a 21st century version of "a woman should know her place."
Katralla, as I've said before now, we can educate people on how to lessen their chances of being a victim of various crimes so why not rape? Although as you mentioned its commonsense not to get rat arsed and fall about in an alley way, people still get blind drunk and jump into unlicenced cabs, end up in bed with a stranger not knowing how they got there etc
People can lose all sense of their own vulnerability when they are drunk, just look at the advert with the drunk bloke who thinks he's a superhero and falls off the building.
So tell me, again if you must, how exactly do you educate women against being raped, a crime which is most commonly perpetrated by a friend, lover, person of authority or family member?
I've listened to LOTS of first hand stories of rape: one from a man who was raped by his boyfriend, one that was a stranger who attacked the girl walking home alone in the dark (sober) the only rape I know that was reported to the police, one that was a drunk female getting into a cab in Birmingham, all the others were unreported and commited by friends, lovers, and people with authority over the woman- what lessons can we learn or teach to not be the victim of these crimes?
Its always angered me that we as a society can put signs in car parks warning people not to leave valuables in their cars, warn male students that they are vulnerable to physical assaults when out on the town and drunk but not say a damn thing about a far serious crime like rape. Now I know why.
My bad.
Nope, they're not made up stories only they are the tip of the iceberg but the ones you are more likely to hear about. I accept that the sensilities of taking care when drunk, not getting into strange cabs etc and needed and can and do help to reduce rape, but only in those marginal cases of stranger attack and rape.
I don't know how to prevent/reduce familiar-person rape but would be interested to hear the lessons we should be teaching girls about it.
I don't understand your point here.
That's really open-minded. How can you disagree with someone's claims when you haven't even read and considered what they have to say? Not that agreeing with him is even the point in hand - I'm merely pointing out the source for the increase in rape as a result of sexual & social liberation. Data, not doctrine.
Men will always see women as sexual objects, so long as men want sex with women. How could it be otherwise?
As for slapping ASBOS on men who talk to a girls' chest - quite how that is going to stop happening is beyond me, so long as men like to look at breasts? - and whistling at girls in the street (which many women enjoy for a start, and is no different from smiling at someone or paying them a verbal compliment), you must be joking if you think that's going to reduce rape.
You're still clinging on the ridiculous fallacy that people need to be conditioned to behave in a certain way. Some people are willing to use violence to get sex, just in the same way some people are willing to use violence to get money. Hatred of women may play a part in a rapist's behaviour, combined with a psychological defect such as psychopathy, but the 'culture of masculinity' which people here blame is a bullshit argument.
He means we can help people lessen the chance of becoming a victim of certain crimes through warnings and education, but we can't with rape. Because as soon as we do we get accused of thinking it's the womans fault if she does.
It's bollocks
Having the attitude that there are ways to lessen the chance of being raped, does not mean you have the attitude that those who do get raped are partly to blame. The two attitudes are not mutually exclusive.
While we live in such an uneven patriarchal society, there will be rape because people think theyve got the right
Nobody has the right to stare at somebody else without their consent?
Else the thought police might get I suppose.
A lot of women don't liek it granted. But plenty do and I think many of them would take offence at that last statement.
Pinching of an arse and things like that are perfectly fine in the right situations i.e with girls you know won't dislike it. A lot of girl innapropriately touch me.
However with stangers it is never ok.
Staring at a girls body make make them uncomfortable but it is not something related to rape and really isn't smething you can police or should try to.
no cos when youre staring at someone its gone further than just thinking, its a form of harrassment. If the woman doesnt mind, then youve got away with it, but if she DOES mind, then YOU are the one in the wrong, not her for not liking it, and its not ok to do it just because some dont mind
How much forther has it gone than just thinking? Harrassment? If you that sensitive then you have to wise up. People do all sorts of things everyday that make others feel uncomfortable.
Jesus, we have to watch out we don't look at girls to long now, just incase they mind? Bullshit.
You might as well wish for the stars.
Staring at someone without consent? What the fuck? Next time I see a good looking women with a tight top and short skirt on, I should ask her if it's ok for me to look at her?
As for a woman who likes being whistled at...what makes you think they think that's all they're worth? When women give me attention I welcome it. But I don't think I'm here on this Earth just to give women pleasure. Why would a woman think different?
What ways, all I'm asking you is what ways are there, what bloody lessons can you teach a woman about how not to get raped, without talking about fringe cases?
Serious sexual asaults by strangers account for betwen 10% and quater of all reported rape cases apparently. Not a massive figure but hardly fringe. And any sensible ways we can help prevent the number of rapes by stranger the better. agreed?
Go look at the statisitcs showing the relationship between alcohol and rape. Responsible use of alcohol should is something everybody could do infact to lessen the chance of becoming a victim of violent crime (such as rape).
Alcohol is the new short skirt.
I know them. I don't see what difference that makes to our suggestion be honest.
I really find it hard to beleive you are getting worked up about suggestions on how we can possibly cut the risk of being raped. What is your problem?