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Democracry - Cuban Style
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7200682.stm
The next time you feel the urge to moan about Parliamentary Democracy thank your stars you don't live in Cuba...
Oh dear, and some people still think Cuba is the best thing since sliced bread...
The next time you feel the urge to moan about Parliamentary Democracy thank your stars you don't live in Cuba...
The result is a foregone conclusion, with only one candidate for each seat.
There were 614 candidates contesting the 614 seats.
Oh dear, and some people still think Cuba is the best thing since sliced bread...
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i don't like their method of accountability, or lack thereof of it
there's always some gems compared to the rubbish though which includes how they manage their healthcare which is based more on effective preventative measures which tend to be cheaper and good local facilities for small procedures
Having said that Cuba is still a 1,000 times preferable to the best right wing dictatorship that's ever existed, and certainly not deserving of the decades of nauseating, extremely harsh boycotts and sanctions imposed by Uncle check-under-bed-for-reds Sam.
While me and countless others do not like Fidel's Castro's regime, we can at least appreciate the monumental hypocrisy of imposing extremely damaging boycotts and sanctions to Cuba while being best friends and trading partners with other dictatorships that are infinitely more blood-thirsty and oppressive.
Cuba is a 1,000 times preferable to a right wing dictatorship? Tbh dictatorships are bad period. I don't think getting into a debate over whether right or left wing dictatorships are worse is of much value. It's like getting into debate over who was worse Stalin or Hitler.
Although, it's interesting that you're quick to claim Cuba was preferable - a 1,000 times preferable, to a right wing dictatorship... Pinochet's regime was awful - but it can be said with absolute certainty that Chile now is 1,000 times preferable to Cuba.
And if we're talking about how many Pinochet killed and how many Castro has killed - Castro has killed a lot more. Source. (Not the best source I admit but it is pretty widely agreed that as great revolutionary leader Castro killed absolutely thousands).
Was Pinochet a terrible dictator? Certainly... Is Castro a terrible dictator? Yes. It's surely a very worrying reflection on the value the far-left places on human rights that years after Pinochet left office they were hounding him - whilst turning a complete blind eye to Castro's ongoing human rights abuses... (Indeed, plenty on the far left continue to defend Cuba).
And if Castro decides to leave power and call properly democratic elections I think we should make sure he's left in peace the rest of his days (with a bloody good pension to top it off). Nothing discourgages dictators giving up power more than the thought that they're going to be made to pay for their crimes.
I'd also be a bit suspect of Cuba's health care. If it's so good why did they call in a Spanish Doctor when Castro was ill and it's statistics aren't verified by anyone http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/opensecrets/2006/11/the_british_view_of_fidel_cast.html
(and bear in mind the letter that the blog quotes was supposed to be secret and only got under an FoI)
I hope you are not suggesting Chile's status today was reached thanks to the coup d'etat and subsequent mass killing, torturing and raping dictatorship of Pinochet.
The supreme and delicious irony of this fact cannot be overstated.
Again, that doesn't make Castro's dictatorship any more acceptable. But it is a damn shame the US, and to a lesser extent other Western nations, haven't treated Cuba on the same basis as they have treated other equally bad (and often much, much worse) dictatorships elesewhere.
You mean sent in troops to overthrow them?
It's a real shame that the left treat left-wing Cuban dictators so much more differently than ones they disagree with...
And in cases where it chooses to send troops in are seldom for the benefit of the general population. Take good old Saddam Hussein for instance.
In fact, I remember the US doing brisk business most of the above and even shaking the blood-stained hands of their rulers in public while calling them 'friends and allies', and without a care in the world for the women being raped by purpose-trained dogs or the five year old children sent to forcibly work the fields.
But God forbid the US should give any slack to the evil Commie dictatorship of Cuba though. No. Think of the poor oppressed Cubans!
Please Flashman. Let's not be under any illusion about the supreme, unsurpassed hyper hypocrisy of the US in particular and the West in general regarding Cuba and other dictatorships.
Chile was much less worse a dictatorship than Cuba. It's leader gave up voluntary (under intense pressure from the US and the UK it should be added).
The Queen has shaken the hands of various communist dictators. I have seen pictures of Nixon shaking the bloodstained hands of various communist leaders, and there are plenty of famous pictures of Churchill Roosevelt and Stalin.
i can also remember Argentinia (where Carter forbid all arms sales and Reagan restarted them with some very limited weaponary). I can also remember many on the hard left when given a choice between supporting the democratic Government of Thatcher and the facists junta - happily plumped for the Junta.
I'd be careful about charges of hypocrisy given your stance - which seems to be the West should do something, up until the point they do something in which case they should have done nothing.
And the charges of hypocrisy stand. The facts remain that Cuba has been subject to arguably the harshest, most appalling and damaging sustained boycott and set of sanctions in human history. Something that has caused terrible hardship for the Cubans (and I'm not suggesting the dictatorship itself have not created much hardship, because it has, but the extremely hostile actions of the US had made it far, far, far worse than it needed it be). Why treat Cuba like that while trading goods and selling goods and weapons to just about every other dictatorship around, many of which are undoubtedly far worse, more oppressive and dangerous?
If you really cannot see the breathtaking double standards and different approach adopted by the US and the West when it comes to Cuba and others you really need to try to park your hatred of communism aside for one second take an impartial look at the situation.
Pinochet was a fascist murdering butcher. Castro is an even bigger communist murdering butcher.
And continues to show no sign of giving up power. Which is better a murderer who kills 3-6 thousand and then decides to hold free election or a murderer who kills 30 thousand and shows no wsh to give up his hold on power
It has sanctions imposed by one country. South Africa and Rhodesia had them by virtually the entire world, same for Iraq (though food and medicine was allowed through though sadly we didn't reckon on the corruption of Iraq and many officials). As sanctions goes those on Cuba are irrelevant given that it can trade with Europe, Canada, South America, Asia, the carribean etc, etc.
Anyone who takes an impartial look will be wondering why you and others don't see Cuba and Castro for what it is... a nasty regime which shows no sign of giving up power. Perhaps those people need to put aside their hatred for the west and realise the evils that they are supporting are much worse than the so-called western hypocrisy. For a political system which claims to be all about 'people' communism and the similar systems seem to have caused an awful lot of misery. And perhaps this impartial observer will be wondering if there aren't double standards worse than those of the US et al.
You are aware of various US laws that impose boycotts and trade sanctions on foreign companies that conduct business with Cuba aren't you?
What makes you think I don't see Cuba for what it is?
I have stated it on this very thread, and many times previously.
What I am protesting about is the double standards that seek to demonise one regime and have measures in place that have strangled its local economy to unbelievable levels while ignoring similar and worse regimes and actually doing brisk business with them.
Cuba's status with the international community is unique. And that is not fair or deserved.
Ironically, in all probability it is the hostility and decades of dirty tricks and actions by the US that have aided Castro to remain in power for as long as he is.
You are mistaken if you think anyone other than a few people on the hard left approve of Castro's regime. Few people approve of dictatorships (though I must say I find it a bit sad how some people are always willing to justify Pinochet regime on the basis that it was the catalyst for an economic boom or that he decided to abandon power eventually). But one thing is disapproving of a regime, and another not being able to see the disproportionally harsh treatment Cuba has found itself the victim of for decades on end- by the very people who claim to do it in the interests of democracy and freedom, while at the same time kissing the arse of dictators elsewhere.
Nixon was President around the time of detente, that's when both sides actually tried to end the whole conflict. Not supporting each other.
Again, WW2 is a totally different kettle of fish. Churchill and Roosevelt hated Stalin, they just hated Hitler even more and Stalin was a good ally for them.
Like it or not, the US don't like left-wing governments. They always yap and complain whenever one is set up somewhere in the world and don't pay nearly as much attention to right-wing dictatorships as they do left-wing one's. Can't blame them really, it's bad business for them if suddenly everywhere becomes Communist. Got fuck all to do with ideology and everything to do with the $$$.
No, there is democracy in those "safe" seats. There are a few reasons why they are seen as safe. Firstly, the reason why the North and former industrial cities mostly vote for Labour is because the Conservatives have traditionally abonded these areas, economically that is, that's why they vote for Labour who promore Trade Unions and stuff like that. Secondly, there is the psychological aspect, your parents vote for a certain party, then so do you, your area votes for a certain party, then so do you. Nothing to do with the candidates themselves. I'm more worried about the FPTP system Britain adopts, a STV PR system is much better.
Where's your evidence for this? I'm a leftie and I think Stalin is a murdering cunt.
Like Yerascrote I am a leftie but would not dream of supporting or justifying Stalin's regime or even Cuba's. I am sure there some people out there who do. They are not representative of the left any more than Nick Griffin is of the right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Venezuelan_coup_d'état_attempts
What like Chavez tried to do?
http://ww1.thomascook.com/content/destinations/homepage/destination-content.asp?country=usa
http://ww1.thomascook.com/content/destinations/homepage/destination-content.asp?country=cuba
Seems to be spectacular failure then....
You do know that the US continues to allow some exports to Cuba - eg food and medical supplies
And I'm protesting at the double standards which seems to suggest that left-wing dictatorships aren't as bad as right wing ones, which seems an absurdity. Cuba isn't for example treated worse than Burma (and in many ways a hell of a lot better)
Oh, I'd agree with that. if the US finished sanctions on Tuesday, by Wednesday the Cuban regime would gave fallen
And that's a fine example of the pot calling the kettle black... Most right-wingers don't approve of Pinochet, but justify it on some grounds. Most left-wingers don't approve of Castro, but then justify it on some grounds. The right takes the moral high ground by claiming its in the interests of democracy and freedom and the left take the high ground by claiming its about the rights of the workers. Oh and both kiss the ass of dictators.
Frankly I don't care about that - it's the real world and i live with it. I do take exception to this weird view that somehow the left's moral compromises with much worse dictators are somehow morally superior to the moral compromises of the right...
Like it or not the left is the same...
http://www.fas.usda.gov/itp/cuba/cuba-faq.html
Not quite. The UK has had special provisions in place to counter act such measures. Most other countries don't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act
How very nice of them...
Let them suffer and remain as poor as it is possible though.
I am not aware of multiple attempts to assassinate Burma's leaders, or laws specifically drawn to punish foreign businesses that dare conduct businesses with Burma. Or indeed laws threatening US citizens with large fines or even jail if they visit Burma.
That shows the extent the pathetic obsession the US has with Cuba. There are few sights as comical yet tragic as the hoardes of US citizens mobbing up Cuban cigar shops in Canada (Vancouver seems full of them), this being the only way for many to lay their hands on such products.
I might be wrong but I somehow doubt that if Castro retired and visited the UK he would be received as a friend by a former PM, and when an international warrant for his arrest arrived every single left wing media outlet cried foul and demanded his immediate release. As it happened with Pinochet and right wing newspapers and commentators (and much of the Conservative Party).
cuba has been fucked up majorly in the past firstly by spanish colonialists then by america. the latter continues to do so today .
The cuban people may not have great living conditions but they now have many freedoms they didn't have under US rule (batista was instigated by american gvmt). they may not have political freedom but they have access to healthcare FREE healthcare that is far better than the US institutional structures.
bearing in mind the revolution occurred at a time when standards for the cuban people were at their lowest, he's done a helluva job to increase solidarity and has improved living conditions for the people. regardless of the fact he CAN do wrong, he has done a good job.
america's capitalist interference is the brunt of cuba's current economic crisis as it is nigh on impossible to make trade with any other country because america blackmails them out of it. remember this all began beacause of missiles which threatened the us, however in this modern world america still has missiles all over the world and creates petty wars for oil; hypocritical because its wrong for one country to try to police the world regardless of its size.
i'm a leftie (far left) but understand the intrinsic flaw of of communism is its suppression of political freedom. marxist ideals are good and true, but they have never been implemented correctly. i abhor stalin as much as hitler
and if anyone disagrees, please go to cuba and ask the people their opinion. it's an amazing place, that MUST be seen before castro dies and america seizes control and rips it apart yet again.
peace and love x
Viva la revolucion socialista, comrades!
:rolleyes: Do they? Has he ever had any kind of democratic mandate to prove that? Free and fair elections in Cuba? I don't think so. If so many people love him why has his regime tortured, murdered or imprisoned those who have dared to criticise him?
Cubans outside of Cuba hate Castro. And I know if I was Cascara or any Castro apologist and in Florida I'd keep my mouth shut... Still, as slightly morbid as it is to think about celebrating somebody's death - the party of the century is going to be down in Florida when Castro finally hurries up and dies.
mate you got to go to see what its like. i never said EVERYONE loves him, just that a lot do. if you actually went you could judge better.
i didn't stereotype or generalise about people's opinions but you did. lots of my mates are cuban and live in newcastle and they regularly go on holiday back home. they didn't move to escape castro... the ones in florida did but that doesn't account for every single cuban migrant does it?
get your own facts straight before you start trying to push others around
You're pretty naive if you think a package holiday to Cuba makes you an authority on what 'the Cuban people' think of Castro.
You don't seem to understand how dictatorships work. If you visited NK (and unwisely tried to talk about politics) you'd hear great things about Kim... It would have been the same story in the Soviet Union or the GDR. As a tourist you're not going to hear a bad word about Castro - Cubans who are going to come in contact with tourists are vetted, spied upon and got well out the way if they start speaking out of line...
A bit hypocritical that, don't you think?
Given that the original topic was about Cuba - you moved it onto to other regimes and have freely mentioned right wing regimes through out the discussion
Well even your own link shows that it isn't enforceable in the entire EU, the UK, Canada and Mexico.
I could add various other countries such as Russia, etc.
It ahs also only been in place since 1996 and you neglect to mention was put in place following the shooting down of two planes assisting people fleeing from Cuba.
As opposed to letting them suffer and remain poor by supporting a despotic regime who follows an economic system which has only ever bought suffering and misery
Perhaps if we'd shot him, there'd be 30,000 people still alive. Frankly I have little sympathy for Castro remaining alive whilst he remains clinging to power by force and terror...
Well, there's those who continuely wank off about the US record in human rights and there running around saying poor old Castro when other's mention his record. Well, it makes me laugh anyway...
You must have missed the fuss around Markus Wolf then
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Wolf
and its amazing how many of the former butchers of the Eastern Bloc remain free drawing their pensions with no demands from the Guardian that they be immediately arrested.
But perhaps by that reasoning you are right to bring Chavez into the equation. For the record, I condemn his attempted coup d'etat. He went on years later to win democratically and legally, and while I have applauded many of his policies I am happy to admit he has gradually lost the plot and become corrupt, too power hungry and anti democratic of late.
The fact that the law exists goes to show that Cuba is being singled out and harmed in a unique way. And such treatment is hardly deserved, when it has affeced the economy (and thus the Cubans) so badly and when no other country appears to be the subject of such extreme measures.
As we had agreed earlier in the thread, the boycott has most probably had the effect of prolonging Castro's regime rather than bringing it to and end. It has brought no benefits and much hardship for the Cubans, and it should have been ended a long time ago when it was very clear it was serving no purpose.
I have little sympathy for him, but such actions are not only illegal but also dangerous and unjustifiable.
If the head of a former dictatorship arrived in Britain and an international warrant for his arrest arrived very few in the mainstream left would complain. Even if it was Castro himself.
Do you really see a similar reaction happening as that provoked on right wing circles by the Pinochet extradation incident? I really can't see that myself.