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Sorry if I made it seem that you were justifying it, I was kinda mixing a retort to your opinion to a wider argument I've heard in general. So again, sorry if it came across as if I thought you in particular were justifying it. It's just that if you're an atheist arguing against religious people (not that I do that a lot tbh), it's an argument you hear again and again.
My argument is simply that the world in general would be a better place without religious faith, but obviously that's never going to happen (nor would I ever want to take away people's rights to believe what they want). So the next best thing is a society where religious beliefs are just as open to being criticised as political beliefs or anything else. And of course we also all know societies where criticising political beliefs can get you into trouble, and that's equally bad. So twofold: the indoctrination of children into a system of beliefs needs to stop (and this occurs even in Britain in some cases), and religious beliefs need to enter the grown ups arena where people are comfortable talking about them without having to worry about causing offence. It's easy to point to the likes of Richard Dawkins, but only when a politician can sit on Question Time and talk about religious beliefs in the same way as political ones (when was the last time that a politician was careful to mention that they didn't mean to offend all BNP supporters when they went on a rant against them?) will it be equal.
I said "fairer," not better.
If Stalin and Pol Pot and all them other nutters were religious nuts they still would've done the same things, religion just adds to the problem.
But the concept of religion and God will come about again.
Marx said that people put all their hopes into an "illusory" figure like God and a place like heaven to compensate and act as a crutch for the inequalities in their material world. Maybe sorting that out first would eliminate religion, not the ending of religious education?
Do you really believe that noone "finds" their religion as an adult?
I actually have no problem with people believing in the afterlife or in deities. My problem is people being bigots, intolerant bastards because they've been brought up to believe certain holy books that contain a number of unacceptable claims and commands.
Whereas some people might indeed believe in the existence of a Creator, if we managed not to expose children to the teachings of the various organised religions, chances are very, very few would choose to take the holy books literarily even if they ended up believing in God.
People can still be brainwashed about anything of course, but I am certain if we managed not to indoctrinate children at all either at home or at school or elsewhere (a nearly impossible task of course) very, very few people would believe a single word of what the main religions have to say, even if they believed in the existence of a God.
Wow - and everyone wonders why Muslims have such a bad image in the world. It's a mystery, isn't it?
Just because I do not believe in generalising what one government does to every person in the world's second largest religion, does not mean that I do not believe in punishing acts of cruelty.
People have done all sorts of things in the name of religion, not just acts of cruelty.
Am I the only person who tires of people creating stereotypes out of religious and ethnic groups?
You don't seriously expect that if you put a Sudanese Muslim, a Malaysian Muslim and a British Muslim in a room that they'd all think the same, have the same views on life, the same culture and the same thing to say about this case?
Firstly, it isn't just the responsibility of Muslims to work with their 'bad image', although for the record many do. They are just unlikely to receive as much media attention because fear and hatred sells papers (speaking especially of right wing papers). Speaking from the perspective of a white individual living in a multicultural society, we should also be asking questions to our fellow Muslims instead of throwing accusations at them and expecting them to be exactly how the media and politicians portray them. It goes both ways. We're adults and we should question everything, otherwise we are as bad as the people we consider ignorant for following a religion.
Secondly... Let's be fair, none of us -so far as I know- are in Sudan. We can't hear people talking and if there were demonstrations against this (which to be fair could end up with people being arrested knowing the government there), they may not have received the media limelight anyway.
Sure Sharia law is wrong for the UK, but if that is what the Sudanese want then I really don't think that we should condemn them for convicted anyone found guilty.
That isn't to say that, with my western eyes, I don't see the law and decision as somewhat less than moronic.
Don't get me wrong, there are probably many people who believe in what the government is doing, but there will also be those who don't.
The current government got in by a coup. It is also involved with genocide... Do the Sudanese want that?
It's difficult to say, isn't it? I mean when someone has been indoctrinated all their life into a certain way of thinking, and had all opposing viewpoints silenced, then it's not surprising that they have opinions that we might consider backwards. I bet you'd be hard-pushed to find many Chinese people who oppose their government, because dissenting voices have been silenced, combined with routine education on the greatness of the state. And you can't ever forcibly remove a popular government without changing opinion first. It's one of the main reasons of opposition to regime change by force. They overthrow a dictator, seemingly expecting the rest of the population to be the oppressed reasonable masses, and then wonder why the new leadership, are just as much of a cunt. It's no mystery to me. Get a group of people indoctrinated into a system of beliefs, and don't be surprised when their democratic selection reflects those values. First thing the new Iraq government does is execute someone. Great job. :rolleyes: Opinions always need changing first in a war of ideas.
The most worrying thing in this country (since I guess this is the only country I'm in a position to worry about), is the number of people who have described it as an "over-reaction" as if any reaction was necessary at all. I just can't believe there are people in this country who claim to be moderate or liberal, and say things like "an apology would've done" as if calling a bear Muhammed required any action on her part whatsoever. Or people who stress that it's not an insult to Islam, as if their opinion would be different if she did insult Islam. I might be reading between the lines here, but it seems pretty clear to me that these are the opinions of a lot of politicians and public figures I've heard over the last few days, or at least the logical conclusion of what they say.
There's actually a movement in Iraq at the moment who are working for worker's rights, women's rights and ethnic rights. Unfortunately, the USA apparently banned all unions but one which will be controlled by the government. Apparently soldiers broke in to the offices of this group and smashed it up as a form of intimidation.
Also remember that in other countries there is not the same level of transparancy of politicians as there are here. The media is regulated and you could be killed yourself for speaking out against human rights and people are rotting in prison, or subjected to torture as you read this. It is by no means as simple as what the people want. Each country needs to be looked at individually with its needs and factors as to why said government is in place.
To be fair, only a Muslim in Sudan could say whether or not it's an insult to Islam. It's their culture and they understand it best.
As for the apology... Pushing aside the human rights element, if we're taking it right down to the argument of insulting a religion... Well if she genuinely did insult them, intention or not then she should apologise, it's manners isn't it?
As much as I hate to say that, there are and will always be cultural misunderstandings and unfortunately, many of them will happen under authoritarian governments. I think that however, there is probably a far larger picture here than simply a white woman who when in Rome did not do as the Romans did. It could have something to do with relationships with the west.
Fuck me. I've heard all i need to hear.
It's the twat who reported the case to the authorities and the judicial system that condemned her who should be asking for forgiveness.
She probably knew a lot about the country before she went as well as about Islam. I don't know why you would want to go and teach in a country like Sudan, she must be an incredible person to have the strength and bravery to do something like that.
Maybe she made a genuine mistake, or maybe Islam was twisted to be used against her. Again, who knows? People think in different ways from different cultures. It's not for us to say what offends other people.
Bollocks, any person with an ounce of rationale knows that it's a barbaric way of life and should be ended immediately. And all this willy waffling about about different cultures is just pure shite. End of story.
According to reports I read, none of the parents complained (or presumably even knew about it), and it happened in September. Apparently it was a fellow teacher who had the issue. Kinda reminds me of the way that middle class marketing people in suits in councils and boardrooms across the UK decide what's "offensive" and ban things like the word Christmas, despite no-one ever claiming to be offended. I don't know what the agenda was, but it certainly wasn't a genuine case of religious offence in my opinion.
Exactly. I'm not going to stop calling the genital mutilation of young girls barbaric, for example, because "it's their culture." I couldn't give a shit. It's sick, it's wrong, and so are the people who carry it out, and so are the texts that sanction it, if there is indeed anything in any particular set of teachings that does.
Well yeah thats barbaric but thats local customs rather than islam itself.
No they don't. And what is 'barbaric' to one person is not to another. I am not excusing violations of human rights, but putting it in to perspective that we do not think the same and that different cultures have different values.
I know, I was just mentioning it as an example of "respecting other cultures."
But I agree that it isn't up to us to tell other cultures what to find offensive and it is normally white middle class people doing it. At the same time, whilst we need to address the power structures involved with maintaining human rights issues in the private field and the institutional violation of human rights by states, we should be careful to distinguish between religion and the way in which religion can be implemented to maintain (in many cases) ways of oppression to keep the elite in their place.
There are three themes in this case.
Firstly, did the woman do something very offensive in Islam?
Secondly, is this relative to the interpretation of Islam and to the arabic culture in Sudan?
Thirdly is the human rights issue. At the end of the day, regardless of what happened this woman has a right to freedom of expression, the right not to be tortured or lashed and the right not to be deported to a country where she may be at risk (not sure where she's being deported to, should chase that up). This is a legal issue more than anything and something which the state has violated under international law. It is not an issue about how Islam has hurt this woman, but the state itself as a material entity, not a religion open to interpretation.