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The protest camp at Heathrow

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    can I suggest we make a distinction between civil disorder and violent disorder.

    There is a question of context; they are committing acts of passive, civil disorder.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Er? I'm not saying that its the worst trouble I've ever seen or that it couldn't be a lot worse... whereas you seem to think its only trouble when you get bricks thrown...

    In what way is it "trouble"?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well if we take your account of passive disorder as 'trouble', then what would you call the 'dragging and throwing' on the part of police.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well if we take your account of passive disorder as 'trouble', then what would you call the 'dragging and throwing' on the part of police.

    I call it dragging and throwing
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The thing you have to ask yourself Flashman is, if this camp had not happened would anyone in this country be discussing a) the impact of the air travel industry on the climate and b) the ethics and validity of BAA pushing for a third runway after it had given its assurances it would not be asked for?

    Even if the runway is built, as it will most probably will, and even if the protests fail to make most people think twice about superfluous air travel, it is still better than not raising the issue at all.

    Without wishing to debate whether it was right or wrong, while all those big protests 10 years ago about bypasses failed to stop the roads from being built the policing and political cost was considerable and I am sure one or two tentative projects to do bypasses elsewhere were shelved in view of what might be in store. Even if the battle at Heathrow is lost, if a big enough political storm and public awareness is created by the protests then some future corporote bullying and lies might be prevented.

    Because let's keep reminding ourselves BAA lied through their filthy teeth when they assured anyone a third runway would never be needed when they were pledging to be allowed to build T5. As the letter Martin Bashir posted earlier shows. Somebody has to stand up to such nauseating lies, since our government won't. The only way to prevent at least some other corporations from doing that in the future is to shame this act as much and as loudly as possible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    The thing you have to ask yourself Flashman is, if this camp had not happened would anyone in this country be discussing a) the impact of the air travel industry on the climate and b) the ethics and validity of BAA pushing for a third runway after it had given its assurances it would not be asked for?

    I'm sure people are talking about it. But frankly the talk is all about the risk to their summer hols, by a bunch of 'hippy protesters'. It reminds me of a marketing man I once had to deal with who couldn't quite grasp the fact that we didn't actually just want the policy mentioned in the news - we wanted people to do something. Mentioning and talking aren't enough...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well those flying this week from Heathrow would probably be saying that... the millions who won't might be more receptive to the message.

    But even if there is an initial backlash the underlying message might well stay in the collective mind for far longer. I realise this is the 'reasoning' terrorist organisations use to justify their actions, though there is obviously a difference between disrupting people's holidays and blowing them to pieces.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But even if there is an initial backlash the underlying message might well stay in the collective mind for far longer. I realise this is the 'reasoning' terrorist organisations use to justify their actions, though there is obviously a difference between disrupting people's holidays and blowing them to pieces.

    Well yes, but terrorists haven't generally realised their goals very well, so it may not be exactly the tactics you want to pursue if your actually serious about getting your message across...

    (though to be honest I think an analogy is more akin to Greenham Common where the protesters convinced those who supported them of the rightness of their cause. Of course convinced everyone else that they were stoodges of the Soviets and that any party which supported them should be kept out of Government as long as possible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Would you have spoken in the same terms about all those people who went on the streets to protest against the forthcoming ban on hunting with dogs, and which achieved fuck all? Would you have ridiculed them on this board and described them as a bunch of shotgun-hugging toffs who were wasting everyone's time?
    Took the words right out of my mouth.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes but that particular arguement about the Greenham common episode was part of a larger campaign against the perceived 'enemy within', you can't reduce Thatcher's monopoly of the 1980s to that.

    The Soviet 'enemy within' was a triumph of propaganda over reasoned discussion, and that needed to be resisted; I don't think that you can reasonably blame those who resisted or protested at Greenham for keeping Labour out of power.

    We also know from internal records that, at the time, The CIA and MI5 had themselves been circulating black propaganda all over Europe, attempting to smear all manner of groups as Soviet stooges. One of the most striking examples can be found in the publication of Claire Sterling's "The Terror Network"; where she argued that all terrorist groups, from the IRA to the Quebec liberation movement, were part of a Soviet plan for world domination.

    The work of Adam Curtis (2004) in "The Power of Nightmares", as well as that of Jason Burke (2002) in "Al Quaeda" has demonstrated that the fundamental bases for these arguements were themselves derrived from things the CIA admitted to planting in European popular news outlets to undermine Soviet interests.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sure some people must have felt reassured and grateful to our security forces for beating the shit out of completely peaceful protesters yesterday who had wanted to march to BAA's HQ yesterday (an action which would have had no effect whatsoever on the running of Heathrow airport).

    I'd never thought I see the day where anti-riot police is used in anger to shield corporations from nothing more than protests and embarrassing photo oportunities.

    Oh well. A job well done for London's finest. I'm sure brown envelopes to those in charge will be forthcoming from BAA.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the police handled the protesters fairly.

    I wish the protesters would naff off back to their forest and let BAA, Heathrow and all their other targets get on with things. Personally I want to see Heathrow expanded, so they aint acting on my behalf.

    :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    I think the police handled the protesters fairly.
    Really? Do you think cracking people's heads open for wanting to march on a field or towards a company's HQ is fair?

    In a fascist country it might. In Britain...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    I'm sure some people must have felt reassured and grateful to our security forces for beating the shit out of completely peaceful protesters yesterday who had wanted to march to BAA's HQ yesterday (an action which would have had no effect whatsoever on the running of Heathrow airport).

    I'd never thought I see the day where anti-riot police is used in anger to shield corporations from nothing more than protests and embarrassing photo oportunities.

    Oh well. A job well done for London's finest. I'm sure brown envelopes to those in charge will be forthcoming from BAA.

    beating shit out of who? Do you have a link because the only thing I could find was this
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6953518.stm
    Minor scuffles in airport protest

    Some selcted highlights
    Eight protesters were later arrested after blockading British Airways' world cargo centre on Sunday night.

    The demonstrators were lying on the ground in a circle with their arms encased in steel tubing.
    Police said if protesters blocked a public highway, they risked being arrested. Officers moved about 10 protesters, before allowing those clearly inside the grounds to stay
    Earlier, 50 protesters were contained in nearby Mondial Way, following confrontations between police and protesters in which missiles were thrown at officers.
    Six people were arrested during the day - two for assault on a police officer,
    "There are certainly times when unlawful action is required in order to force changes that aren't happening fast enough," she said.[Alex Harvey, one of the campaigners at the camp]

    Its hardly Sharpeville Mk II, in fact its hardly even Great Yarmouth Mk II...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You are unlikely to find much in the mainstream press... being the very people who have been smearing the demonstrators for a full week and printing all sorts of scaremongering rubbish about blackshirt anarchists and fuck knows what else.

    But some things do filter through. On BBC TV news last night there were interviewing at least two men who had been respectively hit around the head with a truncheon and kicked in the leg. Both had bleeding wounds as a result.

    And if you ever frequent U75 there are several first hand reports of protesters being truncheoned or seeing their friends being truncheoned. In one case it was a woolly jumper-type completely paeceful woman who was hit on the head quite simply for being within reach of the nearest copper. She needed her head bandaged.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Really? Do you think cracking people's heads open for wanting to march on a field or towards a company's HQ is fair?

    I didnt see any of that in the papers. I think it might have been exagerated.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    You are unlikely to find much in the mainstream press... being the very people who have been smearing the demonstrators for a full week and printing all sorts of scaremongering rubbish about blackshirt anarchists and fuck knows what else.

    But some things do filter through. On BBC TV news last night there were interviewing at least two men who had been respectively hit around the head with a truncheon and kicked in the leg. Both had bleeding wounds as a result.

    And if you ever frequent U75 there are several first hand reports of protesters being truncheoned or seeing their friends being truncheoned. In one case it was a woolly jumper-type completely paeceful woman who was hit on the head quite simply for being within reach of the nearest copper. She needed her head bandaged.

    Are you suggesting the BBC is organising a cover up? That's almost as funny as Kermit's diatribes against them.

    That said once the decision has been taken to arrest people who are part of a mob you need to go in and get a grip. That does mean moving in with riot gear - and it does mean that those who resist are going to be tackled.

    If you don't get a grip you have the Broadwater Farm situation, where as Bernie Grant said 'The police got a bloody good hiding' or to put it another way a PC was decapitated by a mob.

    It also has to be said I'm slightly cynical about the fact that whenever there's a riot, everyone injured was an innocent bystander. i'm sure a few were, I'm also sure more than a few were trying to karate kick the officer next to them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    thats possible; but in this case I think the protestors actually have the evidence of history on their side.

    While the issue of Police covering their numbers has been raised in another thread, the Beeb is reporting;
    Jenny Jones, a Green member of the London Assembly, said there had been "worrying reports of unprovoked attacks against non-violent demonstrators by police covering their faces and without identification numbers".

    The fact is that there have been injuries sustained by protestors who have been observed all week to be using non-violent methods, as is has been their modus operandi for quite some time now. These injuries are consistent with assaults.

    What concerns me here is firstly the imminent threat of police violence, but also the way coppers who go a step too far can undo in seconds, the work of other Officers. The stuff we don't see, that doesn't make the headlines such as community liason work, is so vital but not romantic enough to make the news. Faith in the police is so hard to build, but can be so easily erased. This is the risk when the police are perceived to act unjustly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And you wouldn't think Jenny Jones may have a political point to score...

    even if 99% of the protesters are peaceful it only needs 1% and its not like political demos don't have a history of attracting those who are more interested in having a fight than have a day filled with love and happiness...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    again my point was mainly about police accountability and practice of number covering, but yes there is still some ambiguity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    say the police should be accountable and yes I'll agree

    Use an example - I'm afraid that sometimes I'll challenge
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there not enough protest anymore ...the majority of people aint interested in shit.
    there are illegal wars going on in our name ...a million marched against it and then went home to air their veiws ont net ...end of.
    governments and big biz can do what the hell they like cos the spirit of protest has been replaced with apathy playstations and drink.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there not enough protest anymore ...the majority of people aint interested in shit.
    there are illegal wars going on in our name ...a million marched against it and then went home to air their veiws ont net ...end of.
    governments and big biz can do what the hell they like cos the spirit of protest has been replaced with apathy playstations and drink.
    Which is perhaps why the suppossed plans for 'direct action' might have had a point. Sadly governments only tend to listen when you wreck the place.

    The anti-war march in the eve of the Iraq invasion was completely paeceful. Had we decided to turn Central London into a war zone instead, I suspect the government might have thought twice about going to war with Bush.

    The French certainly know how to demonstrate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Which is perhaps why the suppossed plans for 'direct action' might have had a point. Sadly governments only tend to listen when you wreck the place.

    The anti-war march in the eve of the Iraq invasion was completely paeceful. Had we decided to turn Central London into a war zone instead, I suspect the government might have thought twice about going to war with Bush.

    The French certainly know how to demonstrate.
    i agree mate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Welcome back btw :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there not enough protest anymore ...the majority of people aint interested in shit.
    there are illegal wars going on in our name ...a million marched against it and then went home to air their veiws ont net ...end of.
    governments and big biz can do what the hell they like cos the spirit of protest has been replaced with apathy playstations and drink.

    unreletaed but welcome back :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    direct action protest isn't the same as illegal protest or violent protest anyway....

    unless protest is illegal in itself, which it is in westminster........ :|
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