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The protest camp at Heathrow

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede wrote: »
    There will be some people out to cause trouble. The G8 protesting, 'libertarian anarchist', useless trouble making types. They're always there. They'd do better to raise awareness of what homeowners can do to insulate their homes as that apparently contributes more to 'global warming' than air travel does. But sensible as that is, it's no fun because they won't get the satisfaction of knowing that they're valiantly crusading against the 'big bad evil corporations' that way.

    Do you even know what "libertarian anarchist" means? Somehow I doubt it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede wrote:
    There will be some people out to cause trouble. The G8 protesting, 'libertarian anarchist', useless trouble making types. They're always there. They'd do better to raise awareness of what homeowners can do to insulate their homes as that apparently contributes more to 'global warming' than air travel does. But sensible as that is, it's no fun because they won't get the satisfaction of knowing that they're valiantly crusading against the 'big bad evil corporations' that way.
    How about the immense majority of protesters, who are not trouble makers? Are they misguided too? Where do you suggest they should camp to raise awareness of the benefits of home insulation?

    And seeing as there are already plenty of experts raising awareness of the benefits of home insulation, why should the Heathrow proptesters cease to raise the issue of aviation when home insulation is already covered? When we see a government body raising awareness of the environmental damaged caused by the aviation industry (don't hold your breath) such actions would perhaps be no longer necessary. But until then...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede; how do you not know they aren't doing that as well?

    This entire thread just seems to have started from a consensus that this is just a bunch of silly lefty kids who are just doing this to boost their egos. There are certainly problems, as you point out, with the 'Black Shirts' who seem to spend most of their time fine-tuning their brick-throwing arms. However, coverage of anti-globalisation protests has been hopelessly one-sided, just look at the actions of the Police in Genoa in 1999 for confirmation of that side of the story.

    Returning to the specific focus of BAA; they lie. It is that simple, and while I can appreciate that people probably have reservations about disruptive actions, there has been little criticism (or indeed discussion of facts and evidence) here in terms of BAA's conduct.

    MikeRobertsT5Lies.jpg

    This is a scan of a document that was sent out during the Terminal 5 consultation, which completely contradicts the tone and content of this subsequent document.

    BAA Consultation Document

    I'll be plain (no pun intended) about this; I had actually hoped to attend this camp; precisely because I was interested in seeing what a grass roots movement and initiatives/workshops on reducing waste and changing patterns of living might be like. It could have been a complete let down, i don't know. But perhaps we might forego some of the usual criticisms until we get some substantive idea of what this camp is/will be doing.

    And even if there are things we might disagree with in relation to it, does that mean we have to reject it en bloc?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good post Martin.

    Of course BAA are a bunch of lying greedy cunts. Shame to the government for once again bending over in front of another corporation- which is not even in British hands any longer and certainly gives even less of a shit for the wellbeing of the people of this country than a British corporation would.

    But even more shame to the many people who inexplicably defend the rights of faceless corporations and greedy bastards to do what the fuck they want while at the same time attacking and scorning the very people who try to do something about it.

    Perhaps we do deserve to be royally fucked by corporations and the country to be turned into a soulless hellhole where profit is the only concern.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    People don't deserve to have their holidays fucked over by a bunch of idiots who put political posturing before people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    People don't deserve to have their holidays fucked over by a bunch of idiots who put political posturing before people.

    Personally, I think that the future of the planet and the human race is more important, but hey, that's just me.

    btw, what's the ratio of holiday to business flights at Heathrow? Anyone?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    People don't deserve to have their holidays fucked over by a bunch of idiots who put political posturing before people.

    If we never did anything that was of inconvenience to anyone then I doubt much would get done; and there is some evidence to suggest your sentiments could pertain as much to some airport security measures (particularly) in the US, as to this camp.

    In fact, your comment really doesn't apply at the moment, as no major disruption has been caused yet. You appear to be (rather vitriolically) judging them on something you think they might possibly do in the future.

    And also I'd say that its wrong to call it political posturing, because that implies there would be something to gain from it. To my knowledge there aren't any for-profit or elected bodies involved, or those seeking a mandate. Once again, you seem to be laying shakey criticisms on these people. Political capital doesn't seem to be the primary concern, and again you have set this up as an event simply and soley called to create disruption.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Personally, I think that the future of the planet and the human race is more important, but hey, that's just me.

    Show me how this protest will aid that and I might be interested.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Show me how this protest will aid that and I might be interested.

    It won't directly change anything, but it is getting the issue talked about.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Personally, I think that the future of the planet and the human race is more important, but hey, that's just me.

    btw, what's the ratio of holiday to business flights at Heathrow? Anyone?

    Really? Then why aren't they concentrating on more realistic issues where they can make a difference... But political posturing is more important to some people
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If we never did anything that was of inconvenience to anyone then I doubt much would get done; and there is some evidence to suggest your sentiments could pertain as much to some airport security measures (particularly) in the US, as to this camp.

    In fact, your comment really doesn't apply at the moment, as no major disruption has been caused yet. You appear to be (rather vitriolically) judging them on something you think they might possibly do in the future.

    And also I'd say that its wrong to call it political posturing, because that implies there would be something to gain from it. To my knowledge there aren't any for-profit or elected bodies involved, or those seeking a mandate. Once again, you seem to be laying shakey criticisms on these people. Political capital doesn't seem to be the primary concern, and again you have set this up as an event simply and soley called to create disruption.

    You do realise that this is more about saying how big and bad the evil corporations are than actually doing anything for the planet?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Really? Then why aren't they concentrating on more realistic issues where they can make a difference... But political posturing is more important to some people

    Realistic issues, like...what?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You do realise that this is more about saying how big and bad the evil corporations are than actually doing anything for the planet?

    Nice analysis there. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    It won't directly change anything, but it is getting the issue talked about.

    Is it?

    Certainly less than the recent floods did, if at all.

    Flash is right. This is more about been seen to be "doing something" than actually doing something.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Flashman's Ghost
    Really? Then why aren't they concentrating on more realistic issues where they can make a difference...

    Two points; 1) You seem to have some criticisms of this, but what are your suggestions?
    2) You seem ready to criticise people who are actually doing something. Why is a week-long session of grass roots development of sustainable systems, where people will go away having shared ideas on what they themselves and others can do in their own lives to help reduce their harmful impact, not make a difference?

    Oh and to put the 'realism' of these issues in perspective;
    Despite myths propagated by the airline industry, aviation already accounts for almost 15% of the UK?s contribution to climate change. To make matters worse, aviation is the UK's fastest-growing source of greenhouse-gas emissions. By 2050, flying could account for more than 50% of the UK?s contribution to climate change. (Source: Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research)

    These are stark statistics but offer a conservative estimate of the damage contributed by aviation, since they only count flights departing the UK ? not those returning! The UK?s top climatologists predict that aviation?s emissions alone are predicted to exceed the government?s target for the country?s entire output of greenhouse gases in 2050 by around 134%. (Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research)

    We could close every factory, lock away every car and turn off every light in the country, but it won't halt global warming if we carry on taking planes as often as we do.

    Despite the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence highlighting the threat from aviation, the sector is not considered by any binding international treaties such as the Kyoto protocol. Furthermore, it will not be subject to the legally binding emission reductions demanded by the UK?s proposed ?Climate Bill.?

    Emissions from aircraft are especially problematic because of the height at which they are emitted and the particularly noxious mix of gases, making them 2.7 times more damaging than the effect of their carbon dioxide alone (known as radiative forcing). (Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research)

    If you would like me to source the original report I am happy to do this.
    You do realise that this is more about saying how big and bad the evil corporations are than actually doing anything for the planet?

    Two points here;

    1) Where is your evidence? Have you actually looked at the published itenerary and stated aims of the camp? Or have you seen something I haven't?
    2) Corporate entities have an immense impact globally on communities and eco-systems; thats just a fact. There is some disagreement as to how we resolve these issues. Personally I believe it to be an issue of individual circumstances. In some circumstaces working in partnership with organisations may be the way forward, in others (such as the Coca-Cola bottling plants in Andra-Pradesh in India) opposition is essential to people's survival.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Is it?

    Certainly less than the recent floods did, if at all.

    Flash is right. This is more about been seen to be "doing something" than actually doing something.

    It's amazing how you can work out people's motives from the comfort of your office chair.

    You're right though, it's a symbolic action. It's about raising the issue in people's minds and in the media. Events like this are also about solidarity, empowerment and networking.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    It's amazing how you can work out people's motives from the comfort of your office chair.

    You're right though, it's a symbolic action.

    Isn't that a contradiction?
    It's about raising the issue in people's minds and in the media.

    Look at the front pages of every news website, look at the headlines on every broadcast, look at the headlines in all of the national papers.

    Erm.... failed miserably is the expression which springs to mind.
    Events like this are also about solidarity, empowerment and networking.

    :confused:

    Erm... so doing not a lot then? Acheiving the sum total of fuck all?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well people are doing what they can, where they are, with what they've got...what else can you expect?

    And I'm sorry but again I must stress that this wasn't just about raising awareness; it is also a forum for local communities and representatives to network and share ideas to ACTUALLY PUT INTO PRACTICE IN THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't that a contradiction?

    In what way?
    Look at the front pages of every news website, look at the headlines on every broadcast, look at the headlines in all of the national papers.

    Erm.... failed miserably is the expression which springs to mind.

    It's been pretty major news over the last few days.
    :confused:

    Erm... so doing not a lot then? Acheiving the sum total of fuck all?

    So networking, empowering, solidarity is not achieving anything? Errr...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Found the website which makes interesting reading - no, I actually mean that.

    Although I didn't find this sentence rather amusing:

    "The camp will aim to be as carbon neutral as possible" - bold mine
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :confused::confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    In what way?

    From your armchair you have deduced that this action is symbolic?
    It's been pretty major news over the last few days.

    Hardly major, and it started on 14th which was er... yesterday.
    So networking, empowering, solidarity is not achieving anything? Errr...

    None of those achieve anything. It's what happens afterwards that counts. Still, so long as people feel good about what the have "done", eh?

    No different to the summer concerts of the Live8 events
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MOK; yeah thats the one, as you can see its not all about brick-chucking nutters with tattoos of Rudolph Rocker.

    Nothing can be perfect, indeed if I had went I doubt that I would have agreed with everything and everyone BUT that is exactly the point, and one which has been ignored in standard reporting.

    What attracted me to this camp was the idea of swopping practices and thoughts about how we can all do something in our own little way; the location of the camp is highlighting a particular issue of course, but not restricted to that.

    It might be that different initiatives are required for differents areas and communities - horses for courses you might say. That is definately something that is worth pursuing in my view.
    No different to the summer concerts of the Live8 events

    Completely different to Live8 and the G8; people aren't waiting for those at the top to do something, but moving towards attempts to set their own agenda and pursue their own goals. Take some responsibility onto their own shoulders.

    And networking achieves so much; the ability to share information and ideas helps the flow of potential solutions keep moving.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From your armchair you have deduced that this action is symbolic?

    Eh? I was talking about your assumptions.
    Hardly major, and it started on 14th which was er... yesterday.

    Pretty major. News items on every channel, items in every paper over the past few weeks, furore over BAA's injunction.
    None of those achieve anything. It's what happens afterwards that counts. Still, so long as people feel good about what the have "done", eh?

    No different to the summer concerts of the Live8 events

    People getting together, trying to find different ways of living, realising that in solidarity people have power...these don't mean anything in your eyes? Fairynuff, but they mean a lot to other people. It's completely different to Live8 btw. Live8 was state sanctioned. This is grassroots. Very very different.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    It's been pretty major news over the last few days.
    Only because it's the middle of August and the press have sod all else to do at the moment but write about a bunch of tree-hugging hippies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Only because it's the middle of August and the press have sod all else to do at the moment but write about a bunch of tree-hugging hippies.

    Now you've had your fun; what do you actually think?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Only because it's the middle of August and the press have sod all else to do at the moment but write about a bunch of tree-hugging hippies.

    Tree-Hugging-Hippies-Magnet-I11756032.jpeg

    As for the protesters. I dont see a problem as long as they are not harming anyone.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Now you've had your fun; what do you actually think?
    They are a bunch of tree-hugging hippies. Let's face it - what is actually going to change thanks to these protesters? Are BAA going to suddenly say "actually, you guys are right, let's demolish the airport and then we can all go and eat a salad"? Somehow, I doubt it.

    (and Renzo, I had indeed been watching South Park earlier!)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well you may be right; but I think its important that they try. I don't think you're seriously into this discussion so I'll just assume you are bored.

    Its great the way that you put all people concerned about the environment in the same boat, and they obviously are all green-munching veggies who wear Vegetarian Shoes and read Anarchist literature and only care about their image.

    I'd love to hear your suggestion about what we can do to help. So please, enlighten us.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The protesters certainly aren't taking their protest very seriously, so I'm not prepared to take them seriously. I'm on BAA's side on this one. Incidentally, if BA boss Willie Walsh wants to get in a plane and run them all over, I'd certainly watch it. ;)
    I'd love to hear your suggestion about what we can do to help.
    Absolutely nothing. There will be a fifth runway at Heathrow whether a bunch of sandal-wearing, salad-munching communist hippies like it or not. (and yes, I am rather bored, but who cares? It's a normal state of mind)
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