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The super-rich who don't pay any tax

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    I am also supprised by the reactions in this thread.

    Just goes to show the Mass Media has had its desired affect - selling Capitalism to those who it rips off and doesn't benefit at all. The new Opiate of the Masses is here it seems.

    Ignorance is the new black.

    ??? It's a bit rich you accusing others of ignorance isn't it? There seems to be a lack of arguments from the 'tax the rich' apart from childish cries of it's not fair.

    And capitalism benefits virtually everyone in this county. Or at least is does better than any alternative system...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    If you call their bluff I'll tell you how many will actually take their business elsewhere: bugger all..

    I'd find that suprising given some have already located to Ireland. Anyway you're missing the point - its not just that some of them move and we don't get any tax. Its those that are left have less money to invest and a smaller incentive to take the risk.
    If you were to say 'let's tax people 60, 80% tax' I can see some leaving. But simply closing the loopholes so they can't exploit it and have to pay what everyone else- including many megarich people who actually have an ounce of decency in them incidentally- is not going to provoke an exodus. At all.

    Did you look at the loopholes. One of them is residence qualifications (ie they don't live in the UK enough to pay income tax). It's hardly a great leap to believe that some of them will move away permanently.

    And one of the other loopholes is the tax breaks on private equity, which is there to help balance the risk of people investing in risky or failing firms.
    It seems that it only takes some vague threats or predictions of doom by businessmen (the minimum wage will bring mass unemployment; we must be allowed to sell weapons to lunatics or we'll go bankrupt; don't make us comply with the law or we'll leave) for people to dance to their tune and believe everything they're told.

    They are complying with the law... If you have evidence they're not send it to HMRC - they love tip-offs on fraud.
    How exactly would, say, Rupert Murdoch take his business elsewhere if the government summed up the balls to make him pay the tax he should? Do you think he'll close down News International and BSkyB and let all his channels and newspapers sink? Yeah right

    He wouldn't invest in it, it would become uncompetitive (internationally rather than nationally) and eventually shut.

    Though I assume you want that
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    They wouldn't.

    Christ. Since when we willingly accept blackmail and extortion?

    Ever since we allowed unions to strike?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Er no. Extortion and blackmail by employers dates back thousands of years. Unions are a relatively recent creation. A creation that was a reaction to employer abuse, of course.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Er no. Extortion and blackmail by employers dates back thousands of years. Unions are a relatively recent creation. A creation that was a reaction to employer abuse, of course.

    Or a creation to allow the proper functioning of capitalism ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote: »
    They should pay tax, like everyone else. It's funny how those who can actually afford to pay it, don't. Even the queen pays tax doesn't she?

    Royal Family Exempt from inheritance Tax which I think is a Double Tax not to mention an unfair tax to people that live in areas where house prices are high and thus more likely to have to pass on the tax to their kids,. etc
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Flashman's Ghost wrote: »
    ??? It's a bit rich you accusing others of ignorance isn't it? There seems to be a lack of arguments from the 'tax the rich' apart from childish cries of it's not fair.

    And capitalism benefits virtually everyone in this county. Or at least is does better than any alternative system...

    Alladin is putting over some good points...

    OK, so it's not fair. That's what you'd say if, for instance, your employer decided to pay you £5 a week, wouldn't you.

    But that's ok, because "It's not fair" isn't a point anyway, it's just a childish cry from someone who can't accept the system they live in. Fuck it, might as well enslave people again.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How the fuck is Inheritance Tax a "double tax"?

    And how the fuck can the Queen pay Inheritance Tax on something that doesn't belong to her?

    The tax rates are about right at the moment, maybe tax private equity a bit more, but you need to consider the "loopholes" that are being shouted about. One of them is the residency test- sure, they're not paying UK tax, but at the same time they are barred from about 95% of the welfare state if they don't live here. It works both ways.

    Most people consider 40% to be a fair tax, as shown by the fact most people pay it, but if you increase that to more than 50% then it stops being a fair tax. Would you go to work for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for nothing, Gerbil? If not, why do you expect "the rich" to do the same?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    Alladin is putting over some good points...

    OK, so it's not fair. That's what you'd say if, for instance, your employer decided to pay you £5 a week, wouldn't you.

    But that's ok, because "It's not fair" isn't a point anyway, it's just a childish cry from someone who can't accept the system they live in. Fuck it, might as well enslave people again.

    Well as I'm employed by the state it'd hardly be a ringing denouncement of capitalism.

    And I've got nothing against making changes - it just that I prefer to think through the consequences....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    DG wrote: »
    Royal Family Exempt from inheritance Tax which I think is a Double Tax not to mention an unfair tax to people that live in areas where house prices are high and thus more likely to have to pass on the tax to their kids,. etc

    inheritance tax in idea is fairest tax of them all as it effectively is a generational one that only gets unearned income
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I earn over £100k (work in the City) and pay hardly any tax - I legally have my cash in an offshore fund in Jersey. If you are given the option of losing £50k a year of your money to taxes or £20k a year which option would you take? Bit of a no-brainer really. The additional amount I save has allowed me to afford some massive property, and I'd rather my money goes there than wherever the government wants it to go - anyway I don't use state education, health service or public transport, and neither will my children.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you're never going to use state services either Jomery, like Police/Fire Service/Ambulance ... ??!

    Get real.

    Just because your money goes into a Jersey fund, surely you get taxed at source in your job anyway at 40%?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    CheeseOnToast wrote: »
    So you're never going to use state services either Jomery, like Police/Fire Service/Ambulance ... ??!
    Never have to date. But (a) I never mentioned emergency services, just edu/health/transport, and (b) that probably won't be worth me spending £50k a year on.
    CheeseOnToast wrote: »
    Just because your money goes into a Jersey fund, surely you get taxed at source in your job anyway at 40%?
    You would think ;) Like I said it's all legal..
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you float to work? Do you want the employees of your company less fortunate than you, your cleaners, your suppliers, the people who ensure you can get to work in the morning and there is electricity to power your computer, etc etc, to be able to get to work themselves and to be productive?

    How would that happen if anyone were to take your selfish, greedy 'me me me, and fuck everyone else' attitude?

    The sooner all those islands and territories lose their tax haven status, or the loopholes are closed so people who live and work in the UK cannot cheat their way out of paying tax, the better.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Do you float to work? Do you want the employees of your company less fortunate than you, your cleaners, your suppliers, the people who ensure you can get to work in the morning and there is electricity to power your computer, etc etc, to be able to get to work themselves and to be productive?

    How would that happen if anyone were to take your selfish, greedy 'me me me, and fuck everyone else' attitude?

    The sooner all those islands and territories lose their tax haven status, or the loopholes are closed so people who live and work in the UK cannot cheat their way out of paying tax, the better.
    I take a taxi to work cos I can't stand digusting London public transport. And yes before you start, taxis use roads which are funded by taxes. But the bottom line is, if ANYONE had the choice of paying £20k tax a year or £50k tax a year on the same salary, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY would choose to pay £20k. I wouldn't mind having to pay the full £50k but whilst this loophole is in place why should I lose an extra £30k of my money and not directly see the result of where it's going (when everything costs billions)? As the article in this thread says, most of the richest pay next to no tax..and the country's functioning OK, poorer people can get themselves to work etc. Sure the country may be noticeably better if every rich person paid income tax (or maybe Labour would just send a few more air missles to Iraq) but don't hate the player hate the game, if these loopholes weren't so easy to exploit people wouldn't exploit them. In the same way most people would choose to download an mp3 for free rather than pay 80p for each one if they're just as easy to download as each other. Sure it's 'selfish' but then again Aladdin how much do you give to charity? Bet you could give a lot more, but instead you selfishly choose to spend it more on yourself on things you could live without.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Tax is not charity, and that's the crux of the matter. Taxation helps support the Government services that are needed, and whilst you might not get to use all of them, when you sit down and think about it there are more services that you use than you think. It's about more than just you.

    I work (in a roundabout sort of way) for the Government, and the job I do helps so many people. Such a shame that people don't think that's a good enough reason to cough up anymore.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just because you may not use the NHS or public education, doesn't mean it's not worth paying for. Many people that you rely on do.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote: »
    Just because you may not use the NHS or public education, doesn't mean it's not worth paying for. Many people that you rely on do.

    :yes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote: »
    Just because you may not use the NHS or public education, doesn't mean it's not worth paying for. Many people that you rely on do.
    This is irrelevant to my argument. Sure, tax money goes to essential/useful causes (as well as blowing up Iraqis, MPs limousines etc). My argument is simple - would you prefer to give £20k a year or £50k a year to Mr Taxman, when (a) it requires next to no effort to pay a lower tax rate and (b) the additional £30k a year I save makes a noticeable difference to my life? I guarantee you the overwhelming majority of the country, from binmen to bankers, would rather pay £20k than £50k tax on the same salary.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't blame you for keeping money. But the sad thing is that there are causes that need that extra money more than you do. So it could be making a noticeable difference to many peoples lives rather than just making yours more cushty.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But if you pay more money then it'll improve (or should do in theory) the services we get given.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote: »
    But if you pay more money then it'll improve (or should do in theory) the services we get given.
    And? I'd rather improve my own life than other people who I don't know thankyou. Anyway this is just like "one vote makes no difference whatsoever", if I was to pay that £30k extra in tax it'd make no visible difference whatsoever to the state of this country, it'd fund another Iraq missile or civil servant's car or whatever, if every millionaire paid proper tax there'd be a visible difference, so focus on closing the loopholes rather than suggesting the game-players are at fault!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How do you know that?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jomery wrote: »
    And? I'd rather improve my own life than other people who I don't know thankyou. Anyway this is just like "one vote makes no difference whatsoever", if I was to pay that £30k extra in tax it'd make no visible difference whatsoever to the state of this country, it'd fund another Iraq missile or civil servant's car or whatever, if every millionaire paid proper tax there'd be a visible difference, so focus on closing the loopholes rather than suggesting the game-players are at fault!

    If the loopholes were closed then there would make a big difference. Tax doesn't just go on war you know. It funds schools, health care, benefits for the low paid etc too.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote: »
    If the loopholes were closed then there would make a big difference. Tax doesn't just go on war you know. It funds schools, health care, benefits for the low paid etc too.

    :yes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote: »
    If the loopholes were closed then there would make a big difference. Tax doesn't just go on war you know. It funds schools, health care, benefits for the low paid etc too.
    Close all the loopholes and I'm happy to pay the full whack. I'm not happy to pay the full whack whilst everyone around me pays little. That's like choosing to pay iTunes 79p per mp3 download instead of getting them all free on LimeWire like everyone else!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jomery wrote: »
    Close all the loopholes and I'm happy to pay the full whack. I'm not happy to pay the full whack whilst everyone around me pays little.

    But if everyone paid the same as you, we wouldn't all have much money left, would we?
    That's like choosing to pay iTunes 79p per mp3 download instead of getting them all free on LimeWire like everyone else!

    Not everyone does that though.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote: »
    But if everyone paid the same as you, we wouldn't all have much money left, would we?
    .


    and maybe some people should have to pay more for milk because they can aford to?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sofie wrote: »
    But if everyone paid the same as you, we wouldn't all have much money left, would we?
    Sorry I was referring to % paid by people I know in the city (5-25%) vs the near-40% they should be paying.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jomery wrote: »
    Sorry I was referring to % paid by people I know in the city (5-25%) vs the near-40% they should be paying.

    Now you make sense.
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