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Well do you think that black people have an advantage in this country, because occasionally a white person may feel that they might be labelled racist? No doubt there are some women who use the fact that they're women to gain an advantage by accusing someone as sexism, in the same way that there are some black people who use the fact that they are black to gain a similar advantage. But I'd say for every one of them, there's ten more people who would discriminate against them because they are female/black. The small number that do use their minority status (and women are a minority in terms of opportunity, if not actual numbers) to gain advantages and accuse anyone who might not like them/pick them for something of being sexist, certainly do have a disproportionate negative effect on the cause that they claim to be supporting though (when in reality, they only give a shit about themselves).
Not in general, my first post said otherwise. I've had one or two to drink tonight, so forgive me if I miss important clauses out. I mean, when it comes to a discussion between the rights of men and women, men are afraid to defend (or argue in favour of) their rights (sometimes) because of the possibility that they will be attacked by a barrage of comments insinuating they're being sexist.
But just my comment has you defending women (which is fair) but with comments about rape etc. coming out of your mouth first, it's almost akin to emotional blackmail. I'm not a rapist, but if I should say that maybe we should re-evaluate the playing field from a fresh perspective, it's the first comment that comes up.
I've said that it's changes in society and attitudes that need to happen, and that the legistlative 'support' for women to have true equality in terms of opportunities and rights is already (in the UK at least) there [except for front line troops and a few other niches].
If Germaine Greer (for example) said to you, that men were inferior, an abnormality. Would you feel 100% comfortable about bringing her up on that? Cos if you would, you've got more balls than me, because I'd expect if I mentioned anything she (and the 'mob' of over-reactionaries) would say that women have 'endured centuries of oppresion at the hands of men and still to this day fight for the very right just to be treated as equals' as if I was instrumental in that oppression. Which, in an earlier post, I asked whether it was seen as oppression at the time, or whether that was just 'the way' of things. I mean, these days we don't have ultimate freedom - it's much better than it was in the dark ages, but we still have a lot of restrictions - would we say we're 'oppressed' if in 200 years a new libertarian revolution takes hold so that we can do whatever we want whenever we want?
I hate being labelled an 'oppressive man', I am a man, just as women are women. We should have equal rights and equal opportunities, but you wouldn't preach to a German person about the evil's of the Nazi's and WW2 - they acknowledge it was wrong - but by you saying to them in that patronising way 'oh we had it bad' it feels almost like you assume they are one and the same.
Someone that Greer isn't talking about you personally, she's talking about the social groupings that have existed in society. Yes you are a beneficiary of certain advantages because you are a man, yes you are more likely to succeed because you are a man. You are also statistically more likely to be wealthy or successful because you are white and are from the developed world.
However that doesn't mean you created that system, it doesn't mean you have to reinforce it, and it doesn't mean you need to feel attack when people point out the history of the world.
Being a man doesn't make you sexist, and you shouldn't have to feel that way, unless you are. Anymore than being white makes you more likely to be a racist, or being straight makes you hugely more likely to be a homophobe.
We are who we are at heart - not simple statistics. If you're not sexist then be proud of that, when you hear someone talk about the history of gender then feel proud you're not bound by that prejudice, rather than threatened by its reality.
yeah, you are off the mark. not disproportionate.
Are you essentially saying that you occasionally feel hesitant about pointing out an inequality in society if they're tipped in the favour of women - even though you know men are better off on the whole - as you've you had experiences where you've had your head bitten off?
You shouldn't feel hesitant about pointing out inequalities, whether it's in gender, colour, or creed. Anyone who snaps at you for it is a being a knob, but probably just wants to highlight a greater inequality - albeit tactlessly.
How come though?
Let's not talk individuals, let's discuss societies. I would say that most (if not all countries, depending on the degree) today have a patriarchal culture which oppresses women to some extent. In the UK, arguably we're talking something which in comparison to other countries is small... For example, women earning a third less at work, judges not taking rape seriously, sexual harassment. Then look at Sudan where rape is a weapon of war. For example, the majority women in refugee villages (and they are almost all women and children as the men flee or are killed) are systematically raped by the Janjaweed every time they leave their camps to collect water or fuel. This is a regular occurance, the Janjaweed hang around the camps waiting for women to leave so the can have their way (I can try and find a link, bt this is from what a guy in Aegis told me and it's perfectly believable).
I'm sorry, but I don't see how caring for these women's rights in Sudan and indeed for my sisters back home makes me even comparible to disliking men, or to seeng them as less important as a lot of people have claimed. To me, being a feminist is being a human rights activist, in encouraging and educating people that women are equal.
You know, you may sometimes be labelled as an oppressive man, or as an oppressive white person, or as an oppressive westerner because at some point in our history, everybody has somehow genetically oppressed people. I'm sure my Latvian ancestors had some involvement with slavery.
I agree with you that sometimes we need to move on, but only where prejudice is concerned. You will get women who are prejudiced because you're male and some will call themselves 'feminists', but this is the great minority. At the same time, please don't assume that when we talk about rape, sexual assault or domestic violence we have you in mind. I assure you that we don't (you seem like a lovely guy), but that people have to recognise that it goes on and happens mostly to women. Every time people attack feminism, they attack a movement which aims to help women achieve equality and escape some terrible situations. They attack a movement which has helped women have control over their bodies and their lives as well as full participation in society (almost).
Speaking globally, feminism is incredibly important. You can be culturally sensitive without being culturally relativist when looking at human rights issues involving women. Rape as a weapon of war being one, female circumcision (a tricky one), violence issues, forced sexual slavery...
At the end of the day, if I were a male I'd probably feel uncomfortable talking about issues affecting women where men are the oppressors because I would somehow feel connected to the oppressor. But then that is me.
I didn't mean to imply that. What I meant, was why (relatively speaking) as a whole, does the issue of woman's rights become so prominent? Everyone has personal reasons for it, but some people seem to go into 'feminazi mode' (think it was the register who came up with that term
I wasn't attacking feminism either, or at least I didn't mean to come across like I was. In my opening post, I said that we should all strive for feminist ideals, because we should all believe in equal opportunities. I did refer to 'men attacking feminists and feminists attacking men' - by this, you get people on both sides who will have prejudiced against the other. And as a man, I personally do experience prejudice from time to time - not in getting a job - but in a social situation. However, in my experience, saying this to people who label themselves feminists (what we should label these people, I don't know), will rubbish men's claims, fervently saying that women have always had it harder, if they could cope with it men can, so quiet.
I agree with you completely here. I recently bought 'the rape of Nanking' to learn more about the horrific ordeals women had to suffer, because they were women. Although men weren't spared wholly, it was women who were taken as prisoners to be gang raped repeatedly by large groups of soldiers.
This is the small nuance that makes me feel uneasy. 'men are the oppressors' - although some men opressed women, and continue to do so, as a whole section of society, how many do? And in the past, where we look back and say how horrific it was for women - do you think women of the time thought that they wanted freedom? I mean, it's not meant to be a leading question, I was talking last night with some friends about it...
One last point. Today, picked up another of my young cousins magasines. In it, it had a guide to men. One section was how much of a liar is he? Tick the comments he's said:
'I don't like jordan that much, i prefer more natural looking girls'
... (and some more, but can't remember. If I see it again I will write them up, one was about computer games, another about enjoying speaking on the phone for hours) - basically according to this magasine (although I realise it was just for fun), the more he said, the more of a liar he was. Therefore, even if it's not a cast iron belief, it does hint that there is a pre-judgement of men (in general) that they all fancy jordan, all prefer computer games to their girlfriends, and all hate listening to girls talking.
So when I say, I think women have the advantage in the media, and in being able to talk about their issues freely (not because women are oppressing men, but because of societies expectations - albeit the 'feminazi' crowd do seem to enjoy jumping on those who say 'men get raped too' etc.), I don't think it's that unfair an assertion to make. Apart from one recent film (no spoilers though
Oh yea, I think most advertising is targetting at women, and as such women are still constained - they're supposed to look skinny and such. But, what I meant by the media thing, was men are sometimes portrayed as stupid / sexual predators / uncaring, whereas women are the opposite. Like I said, one off it's fine, but when I see the 10th advert taking the mick out of male stupidity and then his girlfriend shows him how it's 'really done', I feel a bit hard done by as a guy.
We can argue it's only advertising, but marketing is one of the main influences on our social expectations and norms these days. Look at a woman's figure. Ask most guys, they will say there's nothing wrong with a curvier woman. Most women, on the other hand, seem to think thinner is better, because that's what they've been 'brainwashed' to believe is better. And men, at least me, have been brainwashed to believe that the more I earn, the more 'manly' I am. Simply earning minimum wage full time would wreck my self esteem - not because I want the money, but, I guess you could call it an ego thing.
But when the marketing / mass media is imo leading to negative stereotypes of men I start to have complaints about it...
Germaine Greer has no control over the FX network - it's predominently men running the media doing it to men.
On another matter, reading a BBC article about internet bullying / blog bullying, then for some reason one section was labelled 'tough on women'
I mean, I'd have to agree in my personal experience most online twat spammers are guys. However, surely it's just another gender prejudice coming out, that even online where there are no people in charge and you can write your own opinion, some would argue women still have it tougher online, because of 'young geek guys'.
Again, in itself the comment doesn't bother me, but there is an undercurrent, and possibly even an accepted one even today, that there is a prejudice against 'men' in society. Whilst if you met a guy that's fine, when people talk about the genders collatively (is that the right word), men seem to be portrayed very subtlely as 'the bad guys'.
For some comic relief though, when I was little I used to wear my mum's high heels and wanted to be a girl
What's the opposite of a tomboy? I was that.
If you mean the feminist thing, as in, arguing FOR rights they deserve that they don't have because they were not born with a penis, then imo they're always right. However, under the guise of feminism, some people attack men. Whilst this isn't the main issue (just that the wide support for some high profile people who do this erks me - just a stunt really to say 'men are bastards', but is met with applause and support by plenty of women who feel it empowers them [I guess]) - the main issue is that there is now in my opinion an undercurrent of subtle prejudice against men in society. Nothing spectacular at all, but if you read newspapers - almost all stories about violent crime portray a male, usually black. Whilst it is a valid argument to say most of these crimes are carried out by men, the media spin makes people believe to some extent (and we all do this without realising, it's part of the brainwashing process of the mass media) that ALL violent crimes are carried out by black males.
If someone says to you - think of a nurse in your head - you'll probably think of a woman in an outfit. This is a poor stereotype as it reinforces the opinion in society that women should be nurses, not doctors. However, it is ever improving, so whilst it is now common and completely not an issue for a woman to be a doctor (unlike 50 years ago), if you say to someone 'think of a mugger' how many are going to think of a white girl? But if you look at crime statistics, IIRC (and if anyone looks this up and I'm wrong, feel free to correct me), as a proportional representation of all muggings, woman are increasing (although still behind men), and in drunk and disorderly charges. This isn't because women are becoming worse, but more imo that some women don't feel expected to fit a stereotype and stay at home and do the ironing.
So why are poor stereotypes of men (hey, I'm 5'5(ish), and skinny as a twig, but walking down a street at night some people DO give me second glances, they DO stop what they were saying etc.) still being reinforced?