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If people like you keep pushing, you will see your second holocaust
I think you confuse me with Sharon.
MoK, Saddam has been trying and hasnt succeeded, so what does that tell you. I am confident that the IAEC and other watchdog organisations including the CIA, Mosad, etc. have the movements of his agents well under surveillance. He aint getting any weapons grade plutonium from outside as much as Bush and Blair want us to be frightened that he is.
My statement did not mean that you wanted a holocaust. By saying 'your' holocaust, I meant the one you were talking about.
Extremists like yourself, who compare the situation over there to the nazis and the holocaust do nothing but harm to the entire issue. Do you honestly think that saying the jews are carrying out a holocaust on the palestinians is constructive in any way whatsoever? Personally I think those comments were incredibly out of line. All you do is polarise opinion and rile people up in a situation that requires cool heads and negotiation.
Its time more pople stood and decried Israel's continued bombardment of Palestinian areas. My god man, everyone is ready to stop talking and start bombing with regard to Saddam, whilst active atrocities and destruction are occurring daily by the Israelis.
No, I think its high time more stringent methods were brought to bear there if we want to be truly unbiased in our use of force.
In case you missed it, the Palestinians arent angels. They are carrying out their fair share of atroctities and destruction.
More stringent methods? What do you suggest? Attacking one of the most heavily armed, best trained and most experienced, nuclear capable military forces in the world?
Sure the Palestinians are no angels, but consider how you yourself woulod react if daily tank, rocket, and machine gun attacks were happening in your neighbourhood, your family memebers either killed or exiled, and your city reduced to rubble heaps. As much as suicide bombing is detestable, they are fighting back with the only means left to them. Heck, Israelis meet rock throwing with automatic weapons fire, hardly a force that the Palestinians can take head on.
My proposal would be to enact what Eisenhower did during the Suez Crisis, simply give the israeli's the ultimatum, pull out completely now and cease attrocities in the interest of furthering discussions or face an immediate naval bloackade and Iraqi-styled No-fly zone over their airspace. Add to that economic sanctions and a total cessation of US arms sales to Israel and i dont think even Sharon would defy that threat.
Oh and you are suggesting that Israel would then nuke the West? lol. You really need to go back and learn more about political pragmatism my good man.
Oh grow up....Of course I would condemn them. I was simply illustrating a point. If Israel wanted to get rid of Palestine, they could quite easily do so.
Sure the Israelis are no angels, but consider how you, yourself, would react if daily suicide bomb, sniper and mine attacks were happening in your neighbourhood, your family members killed.
It works both ways. I have always said that both sides hold blame for the current situation. Both sides are guilty of adding fuel to the fire. Laying blame solely at the feet of one side is totally inaccurate and is a very childish and immature position to take im afraid.
Please show me where I suggested any such thing...Please stop putting words in my mouth. I brought up nukes in the context of my OTT statement about more 'stringent' action to be taken against Israel. It was a point made to illustrate the total lunacy of any military action against Israel.
I think you need to go back and learn a little more about reading comprehension
As for both sides being guilty, thats true. However, Israel has a state and a recognised government, whereas Palestine is still denied the right of self determination. So I would say that the onus fall on Israel to stop backing Palestine into a corner from which it has no choice but to fight to defend itself, by whatever means are at its disposal.
Most of my fellow countrymen who love guns so much would understand the right of self-defense against (as you put it) a better trained, better equipped, professional fighting force such as Israel possess.
As for the onus of negotiation, well thats a subjective thing. Personally I believe it should be with Palestine. If the current trend continues, they are the ones who are going to lose. Surely it is in their best interest to sort things out asap. It also happens to be the fastest way to securing their own country.
I suspect that most of your countrymen, as you put it, would baulk at the thought of hunting down innocent women and children rather than fighting their true enemies. Of course the Palestinians have the right to self defence.....they have the right to defend themselves against the Israeli army, not the babies of the Israeli army.
Its oh so easy for us rich (by comparison mind you) Westerners to sit back and chide Palestine for its bombings, but i have every suspicion that any of us would do the same thing in their place.
How exactly do you propose they attach the military directly Balddog? Stones and bullets against tanks and apache helicopters?? I think such a confrontation would last all of say 5 minutes.
Try seeing things through their eyes and maybe youll see that the real cause of stalled negotiations isnt Palestine at all its Israel and its fascist leader Sharon. Heck, he himself should be removed and tried at an international court for his sanctioning of the Shabrah and Shatillah massacres let alone all the fresh civilian deaths he has sanctioned in the past few years.
Building walls around Palestinian land and blowing up Arafat's headquarters are not acts of a leader who even wants to go back to the negotiating table so I suppose its a matter of pick your sides. I'll stick to supporting the cause of the underdogs over there.
Yes, I can say with all possibly certainty that I would not hunt down the women and children of my enemy while I was still able to attack my real enemy, the soldiers.
How do I propose they attack the military? They do exactly what they are doing now, but change targets. They can carry out suicide attacks on military checkpoints, they can assassinate soliders in their beds, they canlay mines for vechicles, they can use snipers to kill from a distance. They have done all of these things in the past and they proved effective. Unfortunately it appears that those who wish to fight the civilians outpower those that wish to fight the soldiers. Obviously I dont mean they should have an open fight on the battlefield. Guerilla warfare is an extremely powerful tool and would be far more effective than targeting civilians.
How about you try seeing things through the eyes of the Israelis? I think you need to remember that I am the one who believes both sides to be to blame here. It is you who seems to be blaming everything on the Israelis.
As for Sharon, ive said many times in the past that he should be kicked out on his arse....So should Arafat for that matter. Their feud is too personal and neither have any interest in piece.
Fine, you support the underdogs, ill continue to support the move for peace.
The related to people hurt under attacks which I know of, havn't been out trying to hurt civilians, cause of the death of beloved family members.
My suggestion would be that Israel declare the "occupied territories" Israeli land since the previous owners of that land don't want it back, and tell all non-Israelis currently on it to either become Israeli citizens or leave.
Your solution is impossible. A no-fly zone imposed on Israel is impossible to enforce. They have one of the world's best trained Air Forces and an ability to fly more sorties over their own airspace than all the rest of the Air Forces of the world combined. Realities, not fantasies. I suggest you need to go back and learn more about political pragmatism.
Aaahhh... the voice of reason. Nobel Peace Prize is no doubt in the post.
Yes, quite.
I deal with political pragmatics all day every day Greenhat, you hold to your profession and Ill stick to mine.
The only reason the palis are using suicide bombs now is because the Israeli military did such a good job of destroying any means with which they can be opposed.
They have repeatedly offered to wthdraw their troops, and have done so on the condition that suicide attacks and sniper attacks stop. As soon as they withdraw, more Israeli civilians die. I think that what they are doing isn't enough, they should flatten Palestine in my opinion, it's what we'd do if terrorists from say the republic of Ireland or disgruntled Frenchmen did it to us, so why isn't ISrael allowed to?
As for a US imposed no-fly zone, lmao. We've seen the effectiveness of the US military against 3rd world equipment and training, imposing that same will against one of the most powerful, most advanced militarys in the world would not go well.
Whilst the yanks are still messing around developing anti-missile weapons, the Israelis have them already.
During the Yom Kippur war, and other wars in the area, Israel have always been outnumbered and outgunned, but have always won with the minimum of casualties.
As for Palestine being flattened, well that sentiment demonstrates your obvious compliance with the status quo of "don't oppose Israel regardless of what human rights abuses they commit".
As long as the Israeli's continue to practice their policy of overkill the suicide bombings and retaliation will continue. Something has to give and it should be Israel if they are truly serious about their own security. I stand by the right of any oppressed people to defend themselves by whatever means necessary, Israel isnt the one being oppressed, Palestine is.
As I said earlier, if trends continue it will be Palestine which will be destroyed long before Israel. Im sure you are well aware of the casualty numbers.
Palestine can either stop the suicide attacks and gain their own sovereign state. Or they can continue the suicide attacks and have their entire existance threatened by attrition.
EVERY time they have done, the Palestinians have responded with more attacks.
I am confident that a long lasting peace can be achieved if both sides sit to negotiate after an unconditional withdrawal of the Israeli forces and the dismantlement of the illegal settlements. Which is only a fair and lawful thing to ask. But when the Israel cheerleaders suggest the Israelis should permanently retake occupied Palestine or the flattening of Palestinian towns, what hope there is?
Brief withdrawls have never been comprehensive across all Palestinian land, which is why i advocate that the West in all its apparent concern for acts of agression against civilians should impose the cessation of violence on both sides backed by the threat of force and economic sanctions.
Left to themselves one can hardly expect that either side will simply stop in the interest of showing good faith whilst their dead friends, family, or what have you remain unavenged. Yes both sides are guilty, but since Israel has more to lose it should be the first to stop and let the process take its course.
Furthermore, one can't expect the Palestinian security forces to assist in preventing suicide attacks when they themselves have been bombarded into rubble by the Israelis (conveniently enough to further Sharon's aims to make sure suicide bombing can't be prevented from within the Palestinian ranks).
I am confident that a withdrawl would take place once the suicide attacks stop. Unfortunately the extremists on both sides seem to have the louder voices at this time.
PS, do you have a link to Sharons statements about them never recognising a Palestinian state? I hadnt heard that :eek:
What exactly do Israel have to lose?
Didn't hear that either.
I only heard that Bibi cause up stir within the Likud, when he suggested of a voting to settle whether or not the Likud should ever recognize a Palestinian state. As far as I remember Sharon was against this voting, and actually voted against the proposal of never recognizing a Palestinian state.
Maybe I am mistaking though... Things are a bit unclear at the moment.
So, shocking as it might sound coming from me, credit to Sharon where it's due.
Still, when we hear that Sharon represents the liberal wing of Likud, God saves us all if the next PM comes from the not-so-liberal wing of Likud :eek:
If its the former then its very worrying indeed.
And the palestinians say they will never recognize Israel. Both sides act like children, their childishness is only surppassed by their supporters from the "civilized" world.
BTW-
Where is this place called Palestine, its not on any 1940's maps...
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Last thing anyone wants to hear.
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This is interesting..
Correct me if I am incorrect. but by what I read here, some Brits believe terrorism, the deliberate targeting and attack on civilians is a laudable tactic?
Might as well add commendable and praiseworthy..
Would these methods be as acceptable if used on your Soil? If so, then I said corrected..
Point is, the palestinians got the short end of the stick, but by their tactics have lost any righteousness their Cause ever had..
When a person supports a Cause, they support the methods..
First, kill or incarcerate the terrorists, then give the palestinians a State.