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That Iraq Dossier

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've finally found a link to the Likud party vote news story.

    Depressing reading :( . Netanyahu and most others in the party actually make Sharon look like a champion of peace and reasoning.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    With attitudes like that no wonder Palestine hasn't stopped fighting back.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    I dont doubt the excellence of the Israeli Air Force, however, given that their pilots are trained by US Air Force Instructors, I confident that a US lead, multinational force could easily ground those planes Greenhat, besides their are other political pressures that could also be brought to bear such as sanctions and embargoes. Israel is not going to fight the world however cocky she might be, and certaintly not if her Big Brother isnt agreeing to back her up in her continued occupation.

    I deal with political pragmatics all day every day Greenhat, you hold to your profession and Ill stick to mine.

    So stop attempting to suggest solutions that are in my area of expertise. There is more than just the quality of pilots involved in sorties..there is also logistical issues including distance from launch site to combat area and number of pilots to aircraft. All areas where the Israelis hold advantages over the rest of the world. As for an embargo, that's been tried before. Didn't work then either.

    I suggested doing a little research on US support of Israel before. Obviously you failed to do so. See how much US support there was in 1948....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Whowhere, Israel has never withdrawn from occupied Palestine.

    Can someone find me any record of the existence of an independent Palestine anytime in history? In the existence of a Palestinian people as anything other than a recent invention?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If youre such and expert Greenhat then youd know that logistics for fighter missions over Israel would be no problem whatsoever for the US since we have a major base on Cyprus which is easily within range of Israel even for extended flights. Alternatively one could easily suppose psitioning one or two aircraft carriers along with support ships off the coast.

    Once again you fail to note that i suggested a comprehensive sets of actions only a part of which was an embargo. Cessation of all arms sales in or out of Israel would soon stifle their economy to the point where they would be forced to comply.

    As for 1948, well my friend, rather pointless to argue what support there was or wasnt for the nascent Zionist movement then given the fact that they DID get their state.

    Its how we have been turning a blinf eye to their misdeeds in recent history that is the issue not 1948.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    If youre such and expert Greenhat then youd know that logistics for fighter missions over Israel would be no problem whatsoever for the US since we have a major base on Cyprus which is easily within range of Israel even for extended flights. Alternatively one could easily suppose psitioning one or two aircraft carriers along with support ships off the coast.

    Gee, glad you think that a couple of squadrons are all it would take to ground the Israeli Air Force. :rolleyes: Once again, it's about number of sorties and the logistics to support more sorties than the Israelis can fly. Do you understand that word, "sortie"? Get it through your head. In other words, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
    Once again you fail to note that i suggested a comprehensive sets of actions only a part of which was an embargo. Cessation of all arms sales in or out of Israel would soon stifle their economy to the point where they would be forced to comply.

    And you don't seem to note that Israel is self-sufficient in arms (as a matter of fact, they are one of the world's largest producers of arms), and that situation came about because of the last embargo attempted on them (which failed). "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"...seems you're doomed.
    As for 1948, well my friend, rather pointless to argue what support there was or wasnt for the nascent Zionist movement then given the fact that they DID get their state.

    Pointless? Maybe you missed the fact that the Israelis managed to win a war in which they were outgunned, outmanned, and had every other odd stacked against them. And they did it without US support. Now, stronger, more experienced (possibly the most experienced military in the world), and fighting on their home land you think they can be beaten by your little band-aids? Fantasies...sheer fantasies...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Self sufficiency is only as good as the access you have to markets to sell what you produce. With a complete embargoe and sanctions their wonderful toys would rust away in warehouses.

    And you are seriously going tell me that Israel could hope to stand up to the might of the US, let alone NATO? I suppose that undermines all your previous claims about ability to take on anyone with or without allies.

    Greenhat, quite frankly i find most of what you say to be as groundless as anything spouted by your Commander-in-Chief.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Self sufficiency is only as good as the access you have to markets to sell what you produce. With a complete embargoe and sanctions their wonderful toys would rust away in warehouses.

    And you are seriously going tell me that Israel could hope to stand up to the might of the US, let alone NATO? I suppose that undermines all your previous claims about ability to take on anyone with or without allies.

    Greenhat, quite frankly i find most of what you say to be as groundless as anything spouted by your Commander-in-Chief.

    Self-suffiency in this case means they produce all the toys they need to defend themselves. You don't NEED markets if you are self-sufficient.

    As for Israel standing up to the might of the US and NATO, it's been evaluated by both the US Military, independent military analysis thinktanks, and NATO high command (one of those "what if" things) and in each and every case, the current thought is that if the IDF is defending Israel (not deploying somewhere else), the IDF either wins or forces a stalemate. Logistics...they have a short tail, we would have an extremely long tail...kind of like the Germans in Russia. Logistics wins wars. The Israelis have all the advantages in their home court.

    Something to consider:
    Middle East Armies
    American Armies

    The mindlessness in this thread is the person who automatically discounts whatever is said because he doesn't like the politics of the person who said it. Think instead of react.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Since you only see the military and not the geo-political needs of Israel that could be exploited to put them in their place there really isnt much more that one can do to open your eyes.

    You seem to forget that Eisenhower successfully utilised the strong arm tactic in forcing Israeli retreat during the Suez crisis, so it could be used again.

    And yes i agree, stop reacting to my points with "you really have no clue do you".

    I think we both need time apart!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ike wasn't dealing with the Israel of today. Another reason the Israel of today exists with the military power and self-sufficiency it has built up. A Suez will not happen again, nor will a '73 war.

    Actually, can you point to anywhere that an embargo or sanctions have worked?

    North Korea?

    Cuba?

    Israel?

    Iraq?

    And since you want to discuss geo-political reality, let's do that. The reality is that there is no way an American government will take action against Israel. Won't happen.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As things currently stand youre right. Which is why people of conscience must continue to speak loudly till we get some leadership with the cajones to stop pandering to the Zionist lobby.

    And Bush has the gall to accuse Daschle of pandering to interest groups! lol. What a complete hypocrit he is.

    As far as sanctions go, i do agree that they are not in and of themselves foolproof means, but they do cause widespread deprivation within society which in the case of Israel would be highly likely to force a change of leadership which wouldnt be so right wing.

    Im sure the Israeli's wouldnt relish the thought of living under the conditions that they are imposing upon Palestine.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    they are imposing upon Palestine.

    Where? Uh...there is no such state... oh, you mean the occupied territories...those places that actually belong to either Egypt, Jordan and Syria or Israel itself depending on your view of International law and the precedent of thousands of years of conquest...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its interesting how statehood is to you the only legitimatacy of a people's suffering. These areas being occupied are commonly referred to as Palestinain land, regardless of Statehood.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why the HECK should the U.S. police Israel? Or anywhere for that matter.

    Clandestine, you want to curse U.S. involvement. But then curse U.S. for not being involved.

    As an American voter and taxpayer I say the U.S. should do as MOST of the rest of the world does and look out for our own interests first.

    Our military shouldnt be the police of the whole world.

    NATO and the UN are USELESS.......and ineffective..MHO.:rolleyes:

    They put the troops at risk. Were you ever in the military, Im just curious? I wasnt so you dont have to ask.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Since you only see the military and not the geo-political needs of Israel that could be exploited to put them in their place there really isnt much more that one can do to open your eyes.

    You seem to forget that Eisenhower successfully utilised the strong arm tactic in forcing Israeli retreat during the Suez crisis, so it could be used again.

    And yes i agree, stop reacting to my points with "you really have no clue do you".

    I think we both need time apart!

    Speaking of clues, your "put them in their place" certainly gives more than a clue where you are coming from...

    Isn't it funny how a small place like Israel whips its large arab neighbors??
    Maybe the arabs ought to strap a bomb on each of their soldiers and yell charge?? :naughty:

    Nah, the IDF is armed.. The first rule of homicide bombing is seek out innocent men women and children..
    And you support that?? For shame.
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    These areas being occupied are commonly referred to as Palestinain land, regardless of Statehood.

    Might we ask by whom?? Perhaps the 6pm News you listen to, but no one else's....
    All that wool covering your eyes?? :rolleyes:


    The palestinians are do some serious imposing in their own right.. Blowing up civilians..

    I know there is always colateral damage in warfare, but only making war upon unarmed civilians???

    I know they are fanatics, however I do wonder about people like you that openly support such a violation of any Law..


    I propose a compromise!!!
    The world would be a better place if each got their way.. The israelis live in peace and the terrorists get their 72 virgins..

    See, everyone is happy... :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Still spouting utter rubbish reverse, not surprising.

    Perhaps its escaped you as to just how many civilians the iDF has itself annihilated with its incessant raids, indiscriminate firing into populated ares and rocket bombardments from Apache helicopters.

    Ahh but thats okay cause they are a military machine and not desperate citizeens trying to return the courtesy eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine


    Ahh but thats okay cause they are a military machine and not desperate citizeens trying to return the courtesy eh?

    I feel like loosing all hope, when every act of the palestinians is forgiven, as they havn't got the same weapon as Israel. It's sick.
    It seriously sickens me to hear how aiming after civilians, preferable younger people and children is ok.

    Can I ask you something? What would make you condemn the Palestinians? I mean apperently due to them being underdogs (your own words) you have decided to support them in every act of theirs.

    Fanatism, all types, all causes, is dangerous.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No actually I dont support every act. I support the right of an oppressed people to defend themselves. subtle difference but a difference all the same. The real point isnt how everyone is so ready to forgive Palestine, because Jacqueline, there are far more forgiving or dismissing the acts committed by Israel or offering mere handslaps whilst basically abandoning the Palestinians to the Israelis.

    Someone has to raise their voice for those whos voices arent being listened to. If Israel were held fully to the UN resolutions it is subject to im sure it would be a far easier matter to dismantle the fanatic groups currently carrying out these acts.

    The Palestinian authorities can't help in that either when israel destroys all its infrastructure. This is what Sharon wants so he can continue to gain points by keeping the Palestinians down and angry. Its a closed loop from which no peace can emerge sadly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jacqueline
    Yes it is sick, worse than sick, demented. People like Clandestine ought to sit and watch children playing in a schoolyard or a playground and think about his words..
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Still spouting utter rubbish reverse, not surprising.

    Perhaps its escaped you as to just how many civilians the iDF has itself annihilated with its incessant raids, indiscriminate firing into populated ares and rocket bombardments from Apache helicopters.

    Ahh but thats okay cause they are a military machine and not desperate citizeens trying to return the courtesy eh?

    Yes, to you the willful and deliberate targeting and killing innocents can easily be justified.. Point the finger and say something inane and asinine..

    BTW-
    The whole world named them terrorists because of their deeds. Butchers, animals, scum..

    One actially blew up a passenger jet by hiding a bomb in his pregnant wife's suitcase... Such a noble man, I am sure his God will reward his deed. With an eternity in Hell..

    You defend such people? Call them noble? Sir, you are quite an odd person and a poor excuse for a human being..
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    No actually I dont support every act. I support the right of an oppressed people to defend themselves. subtle difference but a difference all the same. The real point isnt how everyone is so ready to forgive Palestine, because Jacqueline, there are far more forgiving or dismissing the acts committed by Israel or offering mere handslaps whilst basically abandoning the Palestinians to the Israelis.

    Someone has to raise their voice for those whos voices arent being listened to. If Israel were held fully to the UN resolutions it is subject to im sure it would be a far easier matter to dismantle the fanatic groups currently carrying out these acts.

    The Palestinian authorities can't help in that either when israel destroys all its infrastructure. This is what Sharon wants so he can continue to gain points by keeping the Palestinians down and angry. Its a closed loop from which no peace can emerge sadly.

    Israelis are Palestinians too, under the description you have given. :D

    So, was Munich 1972 defending themselves? Was the attempt to overthrow the government of Jordan defending themselves? Why were they kicked out of Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt? For defending themselves?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine


    Someone has to raise their voice for those whos voices arent being listened to.

    When Israelis don't need to worry for their kids, say goodbye like it was the last time every morning (which it might as well be), live in the constant fear of getting their body shattered to pieces in a public place, don't need to bring fucking psychologist army and police officers to childrenshows telling them what to do in suspicious cases or when beloved have been hurt in such a brutal way in front of their eyes, then they will listen to the palestinians. I am sure of that. Some israelis even manage to, even when carying these weight on their shoulders. But of course not everyone is a demi-god and can carry their own world and others upon their shoulders.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Again you show your own one sidedness. What about Palestinians mothers who have to wonder about whether they will see their own children again, or children their mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, etc. It works both ways hon and its not the Israelis getting the brunt of the violence.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe if those Palestinian mothers tried to dissuade their sons from a foolish and futile course of action they wouldn't need to worry.
    Instead of saying "I'm proud of my son" they should stop him from killing civilians.
    But of course it's the Israeli's fault. They're the ones who retaliate whenever a bus gets blown up, and because they do it with an army and not suicide bombers they're in the wrong.

    The Palestinians, trying against all odds to destroy Israel reminds me of a quote from Babylon 5.
    "Such noble creatures these humans, they are willing to die for their loved ones, they can't do us any harm but they attack us anyway"
    "Noble, or desperate?"

    If the Palestinians stopped killing civilians, the Israelis would stop sending in tanks. And yes, it IS as simple as that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    One might view that cause and effect scenario from the other perspective as well you know. You and those who coddle Israel and forgive them all their trespasses while condemning Palestinians simply put Israel as the reactionary to Palestinian attacks when it is more likely the Palestinians reacting to Israeli attacks (many of which go unreported on a daily basis). So if Israel honours the UN resolutions which they have never done by pulling out fully and ceasing their occupation, the Palestinians would stop reacting violently.

    Since any Israel withdrawl has always been partial and therefore not in compliance with UN resolutions, any argument in their favour begs the question of their failure to honour their obligation under international law.

    Obviously this is okay since they are a strategic partner in the Middle East and we wouldnt want to spank our ally after all now would we? Sheer hypocrisy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What obligation under international law? Can anyone show me where any nation has agreed to give up their soveignty to the UN? If the UN tells the US to give Alaska back to the Russians, is that a valid order? How about if they tell Canada that it belongs to Britain?

    There is a reason that the UN calls them "resolutions" and not "laws".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Whowhere

    If the Palestinians stopped killing civilians, the Israelis would stop sending in tanks. And yes, it IS as simple as that.

    If the Israelis pulled out of the occupied territories, dismantled every last illegal settlement and recognised the Palestinian state, the Palestinians would cease the violence. It is as simple as that. And the right and lawful thing to do as well (as opposed to sending Apache attack helicopters, F16s fighter jets and armoured vehicles against stone-throwing teenagers and civilians).

    Now which one of the two options above is more likely to achieve lasting peace and justice for all?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Would that it were so simple.

    Neither side has ever shown any reason why they should be trusted to such an extent. You will never get one side to back down unilaterally, it would need both to act at the same time. That can only be achieved if they actually talk.

    People on both sides have stated that they will never accept the other, Hamas will continue to attack Israel and the right-wing Israelis say that they will never leave what they see as ther territory.

    To suggest that it is a simple as one side stopping what they are doing is a little naive.

    I don't dispute that Israel actions are abhorrent, but then I would want the same if someone kept willing innocents in my towns too and if my neioghbours has suggested that my country shouldn't even exist. That said I would probably want to kill as many Israelis as I could, if my town was being blockaded by tanks, if my family was being oppressed by them and our land occupied by them.

    It is funny though how this seems to be split along left/right wing lines - how the left always seem to sympathise with the terrorists and the right with the more dominant force...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin

    Now which one of the two options above is more likely to achieve lasting peace and justice for all?

    Which side has the total and utter destruction of the other side written into their fundamental charter? Which sides forces have stated that they want the total and utter destruction of the other?

    If Israel were to totally pull out of Palestinian territories, do you really think that peace will ensue? No more attacks on Israel? Honest question btw.

    This whole thing is going round in circles now. Why can people not accept that there is fault on both sides and that they are stuck in a vicious circle. It could be broken by either side but its very unlikely to happen.

    Simple numbers alone show that Palestine is going to lose this war by attrition alone. If current trends continue, they will cease to be. Lets face facts, the US is not going to do a damn thing about Israel, not unless they step massively over the line in Americas opinion. The UN wont do a damn thing if the US objects.

    Clandestine seems to have missed my question earlier asking exactly what Israel have to lose. The Palestinians have infinitely more at stake than Israel.

    Personally I want to see Israel withdraw from the occupied territories, I want to see the settlements gone, or preferably given to Palestine. I want to see a sovereign state called Palestine in the west bank.

    But im not one sided enough to think that Israel should do everything, bear all the blame, and take all the chances. Both sides need to compromise. Until that happens, there will always be war......at least until theres nobody left to fight.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat
    What obligation under international law? Can anyone show me where any nation has agreed to give up their soveignty to the UN? If the UN tells the US to give Alaska back to the Russians, is that a valid order? How about if they tell Canada that it belongs to Britain?

    There is a reason that the UN calls them "resolutions" and not "laws".

    So according to your reasoning Greenhat, what fucking right did the UN and the international community have in 1990 to demand that Iraq gave up its newly conquered territory of Kuwait? Is it okay to engage in a war to enforce those resolutions but do nothing about the ones concerning Israel? Why should Iraq have given up its 'sovereignty'? Aren't they just "resolutions" and not "laws"?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin


    If the Israelis pulled out of the occupied territories, dismantled every last illegal settlement and recognised the Palestinian state, the Palestinians would cease the violence. It is as simple as that. And the right and lawful thing to do as well (as opposed to sending Apache attack helicopters, F16s fighter jets and armoured vehicles against stone-throwing teenagers and civilians).

    Now which one of the two options above is more likely to achieve lasting peace and justice for all?

    Bullshit. At least some of the "Palestinians" will not stop short of complete elimination of the state of Israel.
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