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That Iraq Dossier

24

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    What we have in this conflict is a brand of the holocaust all over again with an entire people kept virtually prisoner in areas that amount to little more than rubble strewn concentration camps, regular Israeli incursions with indiscrimate shelling or shooting that continues to increase the palestinian civilian death toll regardless of whether it is reported on a regular basis (which it isnt).


    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    If people like you keep pushing, you will see your second holocaust :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Excuse me Balddog??? I think that was incredibly out of line. I have no wish for a second holocaust and especially one carried out by the descendants of the last one.

    I think you confuse me with Sharon.

    MoK, Saddam has been trying and hasnt succeeded, so what does that tell you. I am confident that the IAEC and other watchdog organisations including the CIA, Mosad, etc. have the movements of his agents well under surveillance. He aint getting any weapons grade plutonium from outside as much as Bush and Blair want us to be frightened that he is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ok now I know that you can read so please do me the courtesy of reading my post.

    My statement did not mean that you wanted a holocaust. By saying 'your' holocaust, I meant the one you were talking about.

    Extremists like yourself, who compare the situation over there to the nazis and the holocaust do nothing but harm to the entire issue. Do you honestly think that saying the jews are carrying out a holocaust on the palestinians is constructive in any way whatsoever? Personally I think those comments were incredibly out of line. All you do is polarise opinion and rile people up in a situation that requires cool heads and negotiation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How could anyone inflame a situation like what Israel is currently doing any further????

    Its time more pople stood and decried Israel's continued bombardment of Palestinian areas. My god man, everyone is ready to stop talking and start bombing with regard to Saddam, whilst active atrocities and destruction are occurring daily by the Israelis.

    No, I think its high time more stringent methods were brought to bear there if we want to be truly unbiased in our use of force.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Are you serious? Do you have any comprehension of what Israel could actually do to Palestine? If Israel so wished, they could remove Palestine in a single night.

    In case you missed it, the Palestinians arent angels. They are carrying out their fair share of atroctities and destruction.

    More stringent methods? What do you suggest? Attacking one of the most heavily armed, best trained and most experienced, nuclear capable military forces in the world?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If Israel did that they would most certainly be universally condemned as the new Nazis of our day. Perhaps not by you from the sound of things but certainly by most Western governments.

    Sure the Palestinians are no angels, but consider how you yourself woulod react if daily tank, rocket, and machine gun attacks were happening in your neighbourhood, your family memebers either killed or exiled, and your city reduced to rubble heaps. As much as suicide bombing is detestable, they are fighting back with the only means left to them. Heck, Israelis meet rock throwing with automatic weapons fire, hardly a force that the Palestinians can take head on.

    My proposal would be to enact what Eisenhower did during the Suez Crisis, simply give the israeli's the ultimatum, pull out completely now and cease attrocities in the interest of furthering discussions or face an immediate naval bloackade and Iraqi-styled No-fly zone over their airspace. Add to that economic sanctions and a total cessation of US arms sales to Israel and i dont think even Sharon would defy that threat.

    Oh and you are suggesting that Israel would then nuke the West? lol. You really need to go back and learn more about political pragmatism my good man.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Perhaps not by you from the sound of things but certainly by most Western governments.

    Oh grow up....Of course I would condemn them. I was simply illustrating a point. If Israel wanted to get rid of Palestine, they could quite easily do so.
    Sure the Palestinians are no angels, but consider how you yourself woulod react if daily tank, rocket, and machine gun attacks were happening in your neighbourhood, your family memebers either killed

    Sure the Israelis are no angels, but consider how you, yourself, would react if daily suicide bomb, sniper and mine attacks were happening in your neighbourhood, your family members killed.

    It works both ways. I have always said that both sides hold blame for the current situation. Both sides are guilty of adding fuel to the fire. Laying blame solely at the feet of one side is totally inaccurate and is a very childish and immature position to take im afraid.
    Oh and you are suggesting that Israel would then nuke the West? lol. You really need to go back and learn more about political pragmatism my good man.

    Please show me where I suggested any such thing...Please stop putting words in my mouth. I brought up nukes in the context of my OTT statement about more 'stringent' action to be taken against Israel. It was a point made to illustrate the total lunacy of any military action against Israel.

    I think you need to go back and learn a little more about reading comprehension :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There is nothing OTT in threatening Israel with force to ensure its compliance with its outstanding UN resolutions, much as we are doing with Saddam.

    As for both sides being guilty, thats true. However, Israel has a state and a recognised government, whereas Palestine is still denied the right of self determination. So I would say that the onus fall on Israel to stop backing Palestine into a corner from which it has no choice but to fight to defend itself, by whatever means are at its disposal.

    Most of my fellow countrymen who love guns so much would understand the right of self-defense against (as you put it) a better trained, better equipped, professional fighting force such as Israel possess.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Threatening Israel is a totally different thing to actually going through with anything..There is no way in hell that the UN/NATO/US/UK/ETC will ever go to war with Israel over Palestine..Not unless they do as I joked about earlier, and actually start a holocaust.

    As for the onus of negotiation, well thats a subjective thing. Personally I believe it should be with Palestine. If the current trend continues, they are the ones who are going to lose. Surely it is in their best interest to sort things out asap. It also happens to be the fastest way to securing their own country.

    I suspect that most of your countrymen, as you put it, would baulk at the thought of hunting down innocent women and children rather than fighting their true enemies. Of course the Palestinians have the right to self defence.....they have the right to defend themselves against the Israeli army, not the babies of the Israeli army.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Looks like you don't read either. I am certain i pointed out the fact that compared to the arsenal at the disposal of Israel those who wish to fight back from Palestine have precious little with which to take on the Israeli armed forces. Now having watched Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian children, wives, brothers, uncles, fathers, mothers, etc... tell me you wouldnt go hunting down their unprotected civilians if hatred was the only thing you had left to hold on to?

    Its oh so easy for us rich (by comparison mind you) Westerners to sit back and chide Palestine for its bombings, but i have every suspicion that any of us would do the same thing in their place.

    How exactly do you propose they attach the military directly Balddog? Stones and bullets against tanks and apache helicopters?? I think such a confrontation would last all of say 5 minutes.

    Try seeing things through their eyes and maybe youll see that the real cause of stalled negotiations isnt Palestine at all its Israel and its fascist leader Sharon. Heck, he himself should be removed and tried at an international court for his sanctioning of the Shabrah and Shatillah massacres let alone all the fresh civilian deaths he has sanctioned in the past few years.

    Building walls around Palestinian land and blowing up Arafat's headquarters are not acts of a leader who even wants to go back to the negotiating table so I suppose its a matter of pick your sides. I'll stick to supporting the cause of the underdogs over there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im sorry, what dont I read?

    Yes, I can say with all possibly certainty that I would not hunt down the women and children of my enemy while I was still able to attack my real enemy, the soldiers.

    How do I propose they attack the military? They do exactly what they are doing now, but change targets. They can carry out suicide attacks on military checkpoints, they can assassinate soliders in their beds, they canlay mines for vechicles, they can use snipers to kill from a distance. They have done all of these things in the past and they proved effective. Unfortunately it appears that those who wish to fight the civilians outpower those that wish to fight the soldiers. Obviously I dont mean they should have an open fight on the battlefield. Guerilla warfare is an extremely powerful tool and would be far more effective than targeting civilians.

    How about you try seeing things through the eyes of the Israelis? I think you need to remember that I am the one who believes both sides to be to blame here. It is you who seems to be blaming everything on the Israelis.

    As for Sharon, ive said many times in the past that he should be kicked out on his arse....So should Arafat for that matter. Their feud is too personal and neither have any interest in piece.

    Fine, you support the underdogs, ill continue to support the move for peace.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    tell me you wouldnt go hunting down their unprotected civilians if hatred was the only thing you had left to hold on to?

    Its oh so easy for us rich (by comparison mind you) Westerners to sit back and chide Palestine for its bombings, but i have every suspicion that any of us would do the same thing in their place.

    The related to people hurt under attacks which I know of, havn't been out trying to hurt civilians, cause of the death of beloved family members.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    If Israel did that they would most certainly be universally condemned as the new Nazis of our day. Perhaps not by you from the sound of things but certainly by most Western governments.

    Sure the Palestinians are no angels, but consider how you yourself woulod react if daily tank, rocket, and machine gun attacks were happening in your neighbourhood, your family memebers either killed or exiled, and your city reduced to rubble heaps. As much as suicide bombing is detestable, they are fighting back with the only means left to them. Heck, Israelis meet rock throwing with automatic weapons fire, hardly a force that the Palestinians can take head on.

    My proposal would be to enact what Eisenhower did during the Suez Crisis, simply give the israeli's the ultimatum, pull out completely now and cease attrocities in the interest of furthering discussions or face an immediate naval bloackade and Iraqi-styled No-fly zone over their airspace. Add to that economic sanctions and a total cessation of US arms sales to Israel and i dont think even Sharon would defy that threat.

    Oh and you are suggesting that Israel would then nuke the West? lol. You really need to go back and learn more about political pragmatism my good man.

    My suggestion would be that Israel declare the "occupied territories" Israeli land since the previous owners of that land don't want it back, and tell all non-Israelis currently on it to either become Israeli citizens or leave.

    Your solution is impossible. A no-fly zone imposed on Israel is impossible to enforce. They have one of the world's best trained Air Forces and an ability to fly more sorties over their own airspace than all the rest of the Air Forces of the world combined. Realities, not fantasies. I suggest you need to go back and learn more about political pragmatism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat


    My suggestion would be that Israel declare the "occupied territories" Israeli land since the previous owners of that land don't want it back, and tell all non-Israelis currently on it to either become Israeli citizens or leave.

    Aaahhh... the voice of reason. Nobel Peace Prize is no doubt in the post. :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin


    Aaahhh... the voice of reason. Nobel Peace Prize is no doubt in the post. :D

    Yes, quite. ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont doubt the excellence of the Israeli Air Force, however, given that their pilots are trained by US Air Force Instructors, I confident that a US lead, multinational force could easily ground those planes Greenhat, besides their are other political pressures that could also be brought to bear such as sanctions and embargoes. Israel is not going to fight the world however cocky she might be, and certaintly not if her Big Brother isnt agreeing to back her up in her continued occupation.

    I deal with political pragmatics all day every day Greenhat, you hold to your profession and Ill stick to mine.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You've got to remember the Israelis were invaded first, by the Egyptians, the Pales e.t.c.
    The only reason the palis are using suicide bombs now is because the Israeli military did such a good job of destroying any means with which they can be opposed.
    They have repeatedly offered to wthdraw their troops, and have done so on the condition that suicide attacks and sniper attacks stop. As soon as they withdraw, more Israeli civilians die. I think that what they are doing isn't enough, they should flatten Palestine in my opinion, it's what we'd do if terrorists from say the republic of Ireland or disgruntled Frenchmen did it to us, so why isn't ISrael allowed to?

    As for a US imposed no-fly zone, lmao. We've seen the effectiveness of the US military against 3rd world equipment and training, imposing that same will against one of the most powerful, most advanced militarys in the world would not go well.
    Whilst the yanks are still messing around developing anti-missile weapons, the Israelis have them already.
    During the Yom Kippur war, and other wars in the area, Israel have always been outnumbered and outgunned, but have always won with the minimum of casualties.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere, you dont seem to take into account the fact that i'm not talking about some hackneyed confrontation with Israel's arab neighbours. Sure they can stand up to numerous arab nations and have done so repeatedly, however it is quite another matter to meet your western task masters and supplers with force. They wouldnt stand a chance and you bloody well know it.

    As for Palestine being flattened, well that sentiment demonstrates your obvious compliance with the status quo of "don't oppose Israel regardless of what human rights abuses they commit".

    As long as the Israeli's continue to practice their policy of overkill the suicide bombings and retaliation will continue. Something has to give and it should be Israel if they are truly serious about their own security. I stand by the right of any oppressed people to defend themselves by whatever means necessary, Israel isnt the one being oppressed, Palestine is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and as long as the suicide bombings and retaliation continues then the Israeli overkill will continue.

    As I said earlier, if trends continue it will be Palestine which will be destroyed long before Israel. Im sure you are well aware of the casualty numbers.

    Palestine can either stop the suicide attacks and gain their own sovereign state. Or they can continue the suicide attacks and have their entire existance threatened by attrition.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They've already offered the Palestinians peace, withdrawn their troops, stopped the bombing on several occasions.
    EVERY time they have done, the Palestinians have responded with more attacks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere, Israel has never withdrawn from occupied Palestine. 35 years after a UN resolution asked them to withdraw they are still there. Even in the very brief periods when the army wasn't rolling its tanks around, the illegal settlements have not only remained there but continue to multiply like the malign tumor they are. Israel still refuses to recognise Palestine (furthermore the butcher of Tel Aviv has recently torn the Oslo Peace accord and said they will never recognise a Palestinian State). They have continued to humiliate the Palestinians on a daily basis, to shoot dead teenagers armed only with stones, to uproot vines (what would be the reason this other than pure hatred and evil), to restrict water and movement, to steal tax revenue and starve them of basic services, to demolish house after house (occasionally with its occupants still inside), to deny right of return to the millions forced to flee... A catalogue of atrocities and human right abuses second to none.


    I am confident that a long lasting peace can be achieved if both sides sit to negotiate after an unconditional withdrawal of the Israeli forces and the dismantlement of the illegal settlements. Which is only a fair and lawful thing to ask. But when the Israel cheerleaders suggest the Israelis should permanently retake occupied Palestine or the flattening of Palestinian towns, what hope there is?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spot on Aladdin!

    Brief withdrawls have never been comprehensive across all Palestinian land, which is why i advocate that the West in all its apparent concern for acts of agression against civilians should impose the cessation of violence on both sides backed by the threat of force and economic sanctions.

    Left to themselves one can hardly expect that either side will simply stop in the interest of showing good faith whilst their dead friends, family, or what have you remain unavenged. Yes both sides are guilty, but since Israel has more to lose it should be the first to stop and let the process take its course.

    Furthermore, one can't expect the Palestinian security forces to assist in preventing suicide attacks when they themselves have been bombarded into rubble by the Israelis (conveniently enough to further Sharon's aims to make sure suicide bombing can't be prevented from within the Palestinian ranks).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin

    I am confident that a long lasting peace can be achieved if both sides sit to negotiate after an unconditional withdrawal of the Israeli forces and the dismantlement of the illegal settlements. Which is only a fair and lawful thing to ask. But when the Israel cheerleaders suggest the Israelis should permanently retake occupied Palestine or the flattening of Palestinian towns, what hope there is?

    I am confident that a withdrawl would take place once the suicide attacks stop. Unfortunately the extremists on both sides seem to have the louder voices at this time.

    PS, do you have a link to Sharons statements about them never recognising a Palestinian state? I hadnt heard that :eek:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    but since Israel has more to lose it should be the first to stop and let the process take its course.

    What exactly do Israel have to lose?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'll try to find a link, but it happenned during a recent Lukid party conference- the party voted never to agree to a Palestinian State.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog



    PS, do you have a link to Sharons statements about them never recognising a Palestinian state? I hadnt heard that :eek:

    Didn't hear that either.

    I only heard that Bibi cause up stir within the Likud, when he suggested of a voting to settle whether or not the Likud should ever recognize a Palestinian state. As far as I remember Sharon was against this voting, and actually voted against the proposal of never recognizing a Palestinian state.

    Maybe I am mistaking though... Things are a bit unclear at the moment.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think you're right Jacqueline. Still haven't found a link but seem to remember that Sharon voted against passing such a motion but it went through anyway. I recall the Guardian talking about it and saying how Sharon, who represented the 'liberal' wing of Likud, had warned against such move but lost to Benjamin Netayahu (sp?) and the 'right wing' of the party.

    So, shocking as it might sound coming from me, credit to Sharon where it's due.

    Still, when we hear that Sharon represents the liberal wing of Likud, God saves us all if the next PM comes from the not-so-liberal wing of Likud :eek:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Was it that simple? Did they just vote for a blanket refusal to recognise a Palestinian state? Did they simply rule it out forever, under all circumstances? Or did they rule it our under current conditions?

    If its the former then its very worrying indeed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin
    And the palestinians say they will never recognize Israel. Both sides act like children, their childishness is only surppassed by their supporters from the "civilized" world.

    BTW-
    Where is this place called Palestine, its not on any 1940's maps...

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Whowhere:
    You've got to remember the Israelis were invaded first, by the Egyptians, the Pales e.t.c.
    The only reason the palis are using suicide bombs now is because the Israeli military did such a good job of destroying any means with which they can be opposed.

    Last thing anyone wants to hear.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    This is interesting..

    Correct me if I am incorrect. but by what I read here, some Brits believe terrorism, the deliberate targeting and attack on civilians is a laudable tactic?
    Might as well add commendable and praiseworthy.. :D

    Would these methods be as acceptable if used on your Soil? If so, then I said corrected..


    Point is, the palestinians got the short end of the stick, but by their tactics have lost any righteousness their Cause ever had..
    When a person supports a Cause, they support the methods..

    First, kill or incarcerate the terrorists, then give the palestinians a State.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As long as they extradite and lock up Sharon for war crimes as well Im with you on that proposal.
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