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He's my brother....
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this suggests to me that the 'boundaries' which the majority of posters have mentioned are something that the OP is aware of (whether these are between an 'underage' boy or a 'brother-sister' relationship or whatever. Yet the OP seems to be ignoring the advice on how to stop these boundaries being crossed which to me places her in the wrong. She is aware of the consequences and yet continues to carry on with what she is doing.
She refers to 'Dale' several times as a 'brother' and yet seems to back away from this when people challenge the relationship. Whether the boy is a biological relation or not to me is unimportant we should take all comments on whether this person is in a position of trust or not, which she is.
I do feel that I would prefer this thread closed, the conversation is going nowhere - yes there have been offensive comments, but these are by no means just from one side. As I mentioned I find the content unsettling as from what I have said (and this is just from what the OP has written) she seems to be trying to condone a relationship between a boy and his 'sister' who is in a position of trust, and this relationship is one that she seems to think herself is wrong.
I don't know what else to say really, but as someone who has been the other side of an abusive relationship with someone in a position of trust I can say it is not a nice position to be in
I won't. I've got some things to straighten out here in order to clarify my position...
Dear Jules,
Firstly, I still suspect you are a wind-up. Like I said, there's a lack of consistency and credibility in some of the things you say. For a start, since when were 7 year olds responsible enough to change daipers? They're barely out of daipers themselves. Secondly, how on earth did it ever become normal for you and your brother to share a bed? I mean, I'm sure many of us have shared beds with our siblings due to various circuimstances but never on a permanent basis and usually wearing pjamas too.
Secondly, people are getting pissed off with you because of your ignorant, stubborn, lack of self-critic. No, we are not a click. I haven't been here long enough to be part of a click. This is an online community, many have posted on here for years, so you should take note of that before swanning around whining that people are complaining about you "coming in here" with you attitude. It's like going into a pub for the first time, getting into a debate with the locals about something that no one is going to take your side on (incest being a virtual guarantee of a subject), refusing to take their opinions on board and telling them they're just jealous of you. It is not lunatics running the asylum. We are not lunatics and the mods are not wardens. We are not here to be whipped, controlled or managed.
The bear is called Pedobear. No, I don't think you're a pedo, as by definition, getting jiggy with a 16 year old is not paedophilia, regardless of the local age of concent. I was basically reacting to your poor excuses for justification, coming out with things like 'just because you all say it's wrong, doesn't make it so', 'all relationships are unique' and 'the only people who can decide our relationship is me and Dale'. All these phrases sound like precisely what a pedo in self-denial would say, and while you're not technically a pedo, in self-denial you are.
I think that Betsy in Post 92 has given a very good analysis of this thread.
You've pretty much reiterated what Jim and I have said, so yes of course, if when almond comes back it becomes apparent we need to close this then we will. Can everyone else please give it a rest though because nothing new is being said and it might be that the OP does need more support with this - we'll see what she comes back with.
And now, giving you the benefit of the doubt from being a wind-up merchant, I'll give you my final thoughts on this, as objectively as possible. It should be noted that I feel **Helen** in Post 69 and StrubbleS in Post 73 have pretty much hit the nail on the head in many ways...
Age of constent really isn't the be-all-and-end-all, in regards to both villification and justification of sexual relationships. The fact that in mainland UK, your relationship with Dale is technically legal and a sexual relationship between a 16 year old boy and 15 year old girl who are in a committed relationship and are not related bilogically or otherwise, is illegal, just goes to show this. The way I see it, him being 17 next month and the fact you've not done penetration (though almost certainly everything else) are mere technicalities, as is the fact you are not biologically related.
The fact is, he is your brother. You've grown up with him and had a sibling relationship with him. This is more relevant, as far as I'm concerned, then having a biological brother who you've never met. Seeing him naked when he was little is no excuse. I've seen all my siblings naked when they were young, (as well as my parents), although this was when they were very young children. I've changed my youngest sister's diapers too (I was 13 when she was born and well old enough to know about the birds and the bees) and honestly, it's never made me view my sister in any way other than in a purely platonic sense and I can't understand any possible rationale that would suggest that should not be the case. It's just not plausible.
Now, I would be more sympathetic with you if you seemed to be convinced that you were in love with him and that you were considering running away together. However, there appears to be no limerent feelings on either side. Plus, you both have casual sex on tap (like I said, I definately live in the wrong town or even state), so satisfying your needs is not relevant either (altough it would be a poor excuse anyhow). When it comes down to it, you're being selfish. You haven't considered the consequences of what you're doing and how they'll affect not only Dale, but also the rest of your family.
And what's really annoying is your stubborn refusal to take responsibilty, Despite being the older person, you've played your submissive gender-role well. He's the one who initiates it. It's him doing things to you. You don't do anything. You don't ask him to try and hump you but you don't stop him trying and you feel it's easier than telling him no.
Then you contradict this by saying you actually enjoy it, which I'm sure you do, if you're putting up no resistance. When using this argument, you throw in the brotherly love thing. The sad fact is, a lot of women (and I'm sorry, it is pretty much nearly always women) seem to confuse sex with love. The fact the two more often seem to exist separately just shows how daft this idea is. I'm a great believer in platonic love and I think it's greatly underrated these days, in this world of casual sex, faux-bi girl bandwagons and people casually humping their friends (regardless of gender) because they like them as a person, despite not being attracted to them and sex being just sex. Just reverse the genders of you and Dale and use arguements that a 23 year old man likes getting jiggy with his adolescent sister because he's 'sensual'. It just wouldn't fly.
The reality of your situation is this - you are in a consensual sexual relationship with your brother. You enjoy it. It seems much of the attraction is the fact you love the controversey, the 'naughtyness' of it, the sneaking around behind your parents' backs. You are not here to seek advice, seen as you have next to no problem with what you're doing. If you want anything, it seems that you want approval for what you are doing, which, I'm afraid to say, is not going to happen. I don't know what sort of perverts you talk to on MSN, but no normally adjusted people are going to be jealous of your relationship with your brother and suggesting that Hellfire was, was totally offensive.
That's all I have to say.
I completely agree with betsy here, I want this thread deleted or closed or whatever the powers that be can do to get this stubborn minded and twisted person out of our lives. I find it very unsettling what has been written by the OP and quite upsetting as well; I can't imagine how much worse it must be for the poor people who have been abused to read this.
She doesn't want to hear our opinions, and will not change her actions as a result. This has turned into a long argument which will not succeed in changing OP's mind. I only wish we could do more like contact her parents, see if they can beat some morals into her, but as we can't I think it is better for all to close this topic.
She won't change
This is fruitless and she is wrong.
Please delete it, the very idea of what is happening disturbs me deeply.
just stop responding to this thread or stop viewing it. I think it's everybody's own decision what to make of it.
I'm done with it, so I stopped reading after my last big post, where I summed up all my feelings about this. You can't just vote everything shut you do not like to see.
Reading it the first time round and seeing the age gap and the brother/sister issue gave me a really strong gut reaction which I think it did everyone else who has replies...
Reading it again however, what has bothered me is the use of language.
It seems like Dale is possibly being the one in the wrong here. Yes he's 16... But he's persistantly 'trying it on' with someone who is in his family (wether related or not) and he's old enough to know better.
I'm just wondering, as the OP doesn't feel able to do anything to change the situation; maybe she's not as comfortable with it as she's trying to come across. Forgetting about the age thing for a moment, his behaviour sounds almost abusive.
I guess what I'm saying is almond, if you do feel like he's forcing you at all you do have options. It can feel like you don't if you are in a set routine, and don't want to rock the boat of the relationship you have with your brother if you put your foot down and tell him what he's doing is wrong.
The bottom line is, if you don't do anything, I think we're all agreed that no good will come of it.
I hope you manage to sort out whatevers best for you both.
Again, thank you for injecting some sanity into this thread. It's fascinating how relatively civil and subdued everyone has become....when it was getting so they were in the midst of forming a lynch mob....so very reminiscent of the Inquisition, this being a 21st century mini-edition.
However, some of your more pious members are insisting on closing the thread...."to get this stubborn minded and twisted person out of our lives." as well as...."Please delete it, the very idea of what is happening disturbs me deeply."
The above is pretty much representative of the majority sentiments here. I get virulent attacks for "not accepting" their point of view....yet they are incapable of accepting mine. And one would think I was openly and actively advocating the destruction of their concept of family values.
It appears that once more, the "moral majority" is insisting on the imposition of their will on others. And presumptuousness is indeed one of their more prominent traits.....I asked for feedback and advice.....and I appreciate and do consider their input. Their expectations, however, goes beyond giving feedback and advice.....they demand that I agree and/or accept them....or they denounce me and cast aspersions when they misread that I dare defy them.
Didn't most of you in the UK reject George Bush's my-way-or-the-highway philosophy?
I trust that dissent is as precious a right in the UK as it is in the US. I believe that anyone who can't handle this topic, or the views presented reasonably, absent expletives, profanities and derogation, needs to disengage themselves and do whatever is more pleasant for them.
Moreover, thank you for pointing out that pedophilia is not at issue here....it's rather remarkable how some people will engage in discussions when they haven't a clue what the issue is. No doubt some will come back with...."but". Hopefully they will learn enough not to label and demonize anyone when they are ignorant of the matter at hand. But I think that's wishful thinking.
Also, you are well-informed and correct....the age of consent varies by state in the US.....Florida law reads....."A person 24 years of age or older who engages in sexual activity with a person 16 or 17 years of age commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, "sexual activity" means oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another". Again, some will probably retort with ..."but".
There's really more.....but the two examples above on pedophilia and consent are enough testament that your rabidly sanctimonious, but uninformed, members dwell on their emotions, rather than the facts. As I quoted before, no one can be more wrong and more humiliated than those who are convinced they are right.
I do have a very active life outside of being online.....but I do hope to find sufficient time to post again later.
Thanks.....and you moderators have demonstrated yourselves as fair and expressly cerebral.....please accept that as a sincere compliment....you've elevated your website beyond the clutches of some of your more intolerant and unenlightened emotionalists. I am confident you will keep it that way.
why, and I mean this in no offensive way do you still wish to badger your opinion of you being right accross and still continue the topic when, I feel I can say that 90% if not 100% of the posters/members on the boards have agreeed with you, I mean no offense with this but surely the boards cannot give you the advice you need or wish to hear? as the advice given has been severely ignored and kicked back at those who gave it (I make no attempt at believing i gave advice, I admit I simply flamed your arse)
But I have suspisions that you knew you would receive a reaction like this and possibly wanted that to be so, if so, I blame myself partly for reacting to it, if I am wrong please correct me.
I believe the discussion of whether your situation is right or wrong has come to an end, I don't see anyone condoning it or see any new information come to light, I don't feel a need for this thread to be closed as it will eventually die a natual death and in a week i'd have forgotten about it and we all can go along with our mundane and boring lifes.
As per your post above, I do not wish to push a view of "my way or the high way" upon you, I'll be honest and say, I don't know you or care enough to push it, I care enough to type a few hundred words on the matter and I believe that is not forcing a view onto someone, However I must say you are doing the same thing, you cannot see how the situation is morally or ethically wrong and I believe you've been blinded by the situation, I believe you need to read what EVERYONE has said because I believe not one has supported your actions of both you or your brother, and whether you agree with them or not you really need to consider what nearly 100% of people have said before you move on the situation,
Whether you decide to have the relationship or not, Good luck you have a big problem in front of you and one I believe or hope you'll open your eyes to what many people have been seeing which is a Relationship between two siblings (abiet not biologicly but emotionally)
Good luck,
Online communications can be impersonal, incongruous and discordant. One can "read" anything they want into a sentence or a narrative, rightly or wrongly.
Some of you evidently read into my posts that I "gloat", and/or I have an "attitude".....I don't believe I can make it any clearer in my original post (given space limitations) that, whatever else I may feel about my situation, I am troubled as well (or should I be entitled to only a single emotion at a time?). So why would I gloat, or display a 'tude? You wanted to read something into my posts that isn't there...and you did.
Similarly, most if not all of you evidently read into my posts that I engage in all kinds of "sexual relations" with my brother. Just what is it, exactly and unequivocally, that Dale and I engage in, with regard to any and all acts of "sexual relations", that you so definitively discerned from my posts? And what do I initiate, exactly and unequivocally, that makes me any of the ugly labels you've heaped on me, including unworthy of a position of trust.
Whatever you surmised, it did drive you manic....accusing me of "f--king my brother", "letting him touch me and allowing it", "the sexual intimacy", "getting jiggy with my brother". "I give my brother the come on", "abusing children", "exploiting children", "child molester", "abuse of trust", "incest", "pedophile"....many of these descriptors repeatedly...and these vile allegations are just the ones that jump out at me....no doubt there's other wickedly evil acts and deeds that I supposedly commited that you "read" into my posts, but which escape my mind for the moment.
Long story short, at the end of the day, given what has transpired in this "discussion", whatever Dale may or may not have done....is or is not doing....I wouldn't let many of you anywhere near my little brother for you to demonize, as you have done me.....so anyone inclined, keep taking your best shots at me.
Regretfully, this has been an unfortunate experience, and not what I was anticipating when I came to this site. I'll take some of the blame for some misunderstanding....but no, I wouldn't acquit the few who became so virulently vocal, or the few so pretentiously pious as to demand silencing me. But there were some who perhaps just got carried by the intensity and sensitivity of the subject matter, which I would understand. And I certainly respect everyone's postion on the issue....you have a right to your points of view, as do I, as long as we aren't imposing such views on each other, and we can agree to disagree.
Sorry, but I have to cut this short......I have a little more to add about Dale and me, next time.
Btw, two definitions....
Incest......the crime of sexual intercourse, cohabitation, or marriage between persons within the degrees of consanguinity or affinity wherein marriage is legally forbidden.
Pedophilia.....psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children.
Morality is not an irrelevance in any discussion. Our comments about paedophilia were that it was an unhelpful term, but that the question here, reading about the situation, is that abuse is the issue. One way of another the circumstances do imply a clearly disturbing situation that needs to be addressed, not justified.
Oh boohoo! You poor thing! If it wasn't already apparent that you're so up your own behind, then this post is it. What's really disapointing as there is going to more from the 'Jules & Verne' show to come. I think we're all done with your peverted stories. Seriously, write a book or something. I think you're an attention-seeker who revels in controversey. Yes, we're all so evil and intollerent in here and you wouldn't ever put your beloved Dale in such peril, yet it's not put you off returning. And why, huh? You don't like criticism and you don't listen to advice. You seem to be looking for a pat on the back or something. You know full well that once you've delivered the next installment of this saga (probably invented), no one here will be impressed or approve and then you'll whine about being persecuted, so why bother? Maybe that's what you want.
We've all wasted way too much time on you already. You don't listen and you don't care. Really, if you had any sense, you'd give it up now. I really don't see what more else there is to say on the matter.
Exhibit A:
Why? Even if any of this nonsense is true, what's with your desperate need to share all the details with a load of strangers on the internet? Since you're clearly not after advice, what is it you are after? Admiration?
Crazy.
However, I do know from experience that there are many who aren't as closed-minded on the issue as I've encountered here. But I wouldn't be surprised that, given the utter malice displayed against me, that those who may be sympathetic or even in agreement with my point of view.....will choose to remain silent, keenly aware of the potential fallout for speaking up.
In this sense, your members as represented in this discussion, have abrogated the unfettered freedom of expression your online community perhaps once had :-(
In time this thread may---it just may---pull others with differing mindsets and who are sufficiently audacious, into the discussion. Or perhaps others who can articulate whatever their positions may be, without the virulence which has immersed this thread in intolerance and provincialism. I know I'm not the only person on the planet unfearful of those who would exert dominion over others' viewpoints....let's see if a few intrepid ones subscribe to your site.
I need to run. I have a "date" with Dale tonight, lol. Guess what, he's been keeping up with all the nice posts everyone has been making about us, and is reading this one over my shoulder :-) Dale and I have an evening out about once a month....it gives us a chance to spend some time together without distractions. We've been doing this since he was 14....and he insists on paying from his savings. Before anyone reads any more into this, Mom and I also "date" about once a month....and I date my Dad, too. And I date my BFF's mom, as well, she happens to be my "second Mom", and is also my big boss at work. And others, too. It's a great way to connect and spend quality time with loved ones.
I will address your other comment later.
The idea that this charity provides an opportunity to express any opinion is valid, it does not however provide a public space to condone behaviour that could easily, and by most, be considered abusive.
To claim that being concerned about incest is some kind of act of small minded imperialism ignores the deep emotional and mental pain that abuse can cause. To dismiss those who have been sexually or physically abused by family members and want to participate in this debate as in some how closed minded is unpleasant to the point of simply being unacceptable.
It's pretty clear that the purpose of this forum isn't something that matches with what you are looking for. As someone outside the UK, and as someone who in their latest post clearly demonstrates how disinterested you are in looking for help we'll be closing both this thread and your account.
One thing to other posters before this is closed though - people looking to make a connection and discuss their issues is what this website is for. There is little that is more disturbing to read than users starting to attack others as 'attention-seekers'. We've seem how unpleasant that becomes and it isn't something we would want to see again.