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Now, excessive military force aside, I had been told repeteadly that self-determination and the wishes of the locals is what counts. If that is no longer the case, can we have Gibraltar back then please?
To an extent I agree. However, for obvious reasons the UN (and 99% of its members) will usually only agree to boundary changes if all parties agree - which is why you got a peaceful seperation of Czechslovakia, but Bosnia has large parts who'd like to go to Serbia and Croatia, but can't and why Turkish speaking Cyprus is only recognised by Turkey.
And no you can't have the Gib
Although i feel it's not going to end until russia have the pipline in Georgia. In that case it's going to be horrible to think russia controls the oil pipline.
And when Russia wants another bit of a different country?
The US is not without guilt either. By all accounts it is up to its ears in Georgia and has been using the country to get at Russia at several levels, from intelligence gathering to gaining a foothold at a highly strategic location. Georgia's President's statements could have been written by the White House press office, and his cries yesterday that unless we intervene Russian tanks could be rolling into European cities next were too ludicrous for words.
Perhaps we should all be grateful that Georgia had not been admitted into NATO already, as Bush had appearntly wanted, or we might have been dragged into a war against Russia (WW3 anyone?).
Doesn't take long to blame Bush does it? At the end of the day they may have had some minor involvement, but the responsibility falls 99% between Russia, Georgia and Ossetia - though you can argue where it falls between them.
No excuses for Russia targetting civilians or initiating a larger war on Georgia of course. Though analysts believe such war would serve the double purpose of torpedoing future attempts by Georgia to join NATO and give an implicit warning to nearby countries regarding letting the US to install Star Wars missile shield stations on their land.
So its as much an encroachment on Russia's borders as it would be if they'd lined tanks up on the border. Obviously there's tension there between the two old superpowers and I think ultimately it comes down to that more than anything else. Georgia is small enough to nearly be insignificant for Russia, with the grief it will have to endure because of the conflict.
Maybe its a finely tuned plan (cynical mode on) in order to make Russia look like evil aggressors in the eyes of the world. Timed to coincide with 08/08/08, too... 1500 reported civilians dead in Osetta (which is really a tiny area remember, about the size of a medium-ish county in the UK) in the time between Georgia's 'crackdown' and Russia's intervention.
Controversial here... but all of America's friends in the middle east / west asia area seem to get involved with an awful lot of 'collataral damage'.
But lets be fair and admit that this isn't the reason. The Russians want control of the oil and Georgia wasn't playing ball, nor did it want to become a Russian puppet, but align itself to the West. I'm cynical enough to recognise the way the world is and that Russia was always going to spank Georgia down and we aint going to do anything about it and of course its in the US interests in having another pro-Western and democratic state. But trying to pretend in some way the invasion and counter-invasion is anything to do with the US is more to do with finding the normal bogeyman than reality.
I remember playing a game not so long ago, and as an Island ruler you have the choice whether to align yourself with America or Russia.
I don't think it's about spying, I think it's about making it politically difficult for your rivals in the 21st Century. If we make best friends with Georgia - even if really they aren't that crucial to us - then it can make things awkward if Russia tries to be awkward with us because we can get our mates to be awkward with Russia.
Er that and oil is what I said. But it's not because of spying its because Russia want's Georgia to dance to its tune and georgia didn't want to
Tropica - good game, but I'm not sure I'd use it as evidence on International Relations
Isn't it up to Georgia who it's friends with? It prefers to be pally with wealthy, democratic societies rather than a poor autocratic one and who can blame them. It's not like their association with Russia has been a happy marriage.
Oh don't get me wrong - I know realpolitik and it was always going to end in tears. But I'm not sure why the US should be castigated for trying to be friends with a society struggling towards democracy and recovering after years of dictatorship. It's a bit hypocritical to complain that the US is sometimes friends with bad regimes and then complain when its also friends with good ones.
If the Russians were smart they would simply roll over Georgia completely and seize the country, the people wouldnt resisit too heavily and would most likely fall into line, given the history of the last 100 years. Russia stamps its authority and makes a statement to the world to show it is now once again a Superpower (although this time around it is Economically powerful as much as militarily powerful). This is essentially the reversal of Afghanistan for the Russians, Afghanistan was their big defeat, Georgia is shaping up to be their big "comeback" victory.
No country will stand up to Russia, and no country will stand up to China, essentially these 2 nations are showing they are back and they are Superpowers and America is weak and shakey with a collapsing economy (obviously it is cyclical and will bounce back but media scare-mongering being what it is will make out something different), and an over-stretched armed forces that hasnt the money, man power or resources to match up anymore.
This is more about making a statement and securing an oil pipeline then anything else.
The West will tut and say nice things but will do nothing and Russia will have made a very important point to all the countries on its boarders.
Its really very similar to the murder in London, it was supposed to be nasty and public to send a message.
Incredibly enough, Bush did not have a problem at all with Israel bombing the fuck out of Beirut International airport during the Israel-Lebanon war two years ago. Indeed, he found nothing wrong whatsoever with any of the actions Israel took, even though they were strikingly similar (targeting of civilians, bombing of cities many miles away from the actual war zone, etc etc) to what Russia has been doing.
You couldn't make it up, really...
I hate to be pro Russia (again) but maybe it's for the best. Of course, not for Georgia, but it seems to me that S. Ossetia (or a significant part of it) doesn't want to be part of Georgia anyway and it's population is to some extent victimised by the rest of Georgia. With 1500 (reported) civilian deaths in the hours before Russia intervened, I think it's a bit rich of them to argue they're the innocent ones and Russia is the big bad bully.
Not that Russia has done it for humanitarian reasons, but then, we didn't go into Iraq for humanitarian reasons either. I think I would have been more happy intervening in Northern Ireland for example if it was invaded by the Republic of Ireland and many innocents had been killed (assuming here, that N. Ireland is part of Ireland but rebelling and not the UK) which is more comparible to the Georgia situation than going and flying planes, tanks, men over a couple of thousand miles to make sure the region stays loyal to the our ally.
I don't know if anyone even noticed, but in George Bush's speech yesterday, he said:
"These actions jeopordise Russia's relations with the US and Europe."
I mean, fair enough, speak for himself, but watch the vid. He says it in a way which implies he has dominion over Europe and gets to speak on our behalf. A minor point, but it annoyed me. Around 2m15s -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_7550000/newsid_7555800/7555806.stm
Besides, what Russia has done isn't as bad as Iraq, i mean, at least Georgia is a bordering country and has serious reasons for wanting to secure the area in dispute.
meanwhile a russian general has implied a nuclear strike on NATO member poland is an option if they install the US missile shield there. in response the russians have sent their only aircraft carrier to Syria and plans to setup naval and air military bases there after striking a deal with president Bashar Al-Assad. They've also agreed to sell Iran advanced weapon systems that they previously said they wouldn't, Israel must be loving this...it's no wonder oil is up $8 today!
There is blame on both sides of course, I heard someone from Human Rights Watch interviewed on the radio last night and they said that they could find no evidence that anywhere near as many as 1500 people were killed by Georgia. They said that it was 'dozens not hundreds' but that there was evidence of indescriminate shelling of some sections of the city which is a war crime.
Given the seperatists in SO are funded by Russia this has been a proxy war of sorts for a while.
Given the threat posed I see absolutely no reason for Russia to justify destroying as much of Georgias military as it can find.