Georgie vs Russia

Former Member

So, Georgia sends troops into a province that declared independence in the hope the world would be too distracted watching the Olympic games of China to notice this, but Russia did and counter attacked, pushing Georgia into full retreat, sending in the "Red Army" like a bulldozer, crushing all in its wake, with 2000 Georgian troops stranded in Iraq unable to get back fast enough and America not keeping its promise to Guarantee Georgian security... is this the beginning of the new "Red Empire"? (Yes, i know technically its not Red anymore, but still)

Former Member

It's a mess. Let's hope it doesn't end up in carnage.

Funny how Russia is all for self-determination in some cases, but dead against it in others (Chechnya).

Georgia are not exactly an innocent party either. It all seems a bit too close to Kosovo circa 1999 for my liking...

Former Member

Russia is playing a game of chess. You have to wonder why a country as huge as Russia would fight over territory as small as South Ossetia. This perhaps?

It'll be interesting to see what NATO/US do next as they have been completely out manouvered in this one.

Former Member

They'll probably make every effort to ignore it.

Former Member

It's about the same size as Leicestershire, if you compare:



to



I think it's just a terrible shame in this day and age where we have cures for alzheimers and cancer around the corner that people still can't get over their willy waving and juvenile urges to bash each others heads in. Can't help but agree with this though, even if it's not popular to be on Russia's side:

Mr Lavrov said Georgia had violated a peace deal under which Georgia had agreed not to use force in the South Ossetia dispute.

"We cannot allow the peace agreement just to be violated this way," he added. "Whatever it takes to bring the situation to status quo ante will be done."

Former Member

It's no coincidence that the US military just finished a massive military training exercise in Georgia last week, and Israeli security advisers are also over there helping to show how to use their fancy new weapons. I guess they want to test their gadgets in a live scenario against Russian tech so they can collect data and fine tune them for use against Iran. It's just lucky that Georgia isn't part of NATO or things would get ugly pretty fast, as it is I think the US will agree to look the other way if Russia does the same with Iran.

The BTC pipeline is Georgia's only bargaining chip for Western support as it's the only one into Europe from the Caspian that Russia doesn't control. Unfortuanatly for them NATO is a bunch of pussies and if Georgia thought that joining the coalition and sending their boys to die in Iraq was going to save them they're in for a rude awakening, even Bush isn't stupid enough to go up against Russia directly.

Former Member

Georgia declares formal state of war with Russia. Well, sort of. This isn't going to end well for Georgia, oh dear.

Former Member

Methinks Georgia has bitten off far more than it can chew. Kind of like the really small 15 year old lad picking a fight with a super heavyweight at the pub

Former Member

it's still not clear who is the aggressor imo, georgia claims that russia have been funding the separatists in south ossetia for some time so they may well be using the olympics as an opportunity to respond to that provocation. either way it's not a smart move for georgia i'd agree.

Former Member

I think Russia have definatley been assisting all the seperatist movements in all of Georgie, now different regions are rising up against Georgia and with out Russian Military support, but because the bulk of the Georgian army is engaged with Russia there is no one to stop the uprisings. All in all, i think Russia was expecting this, or something like it and have had contingency plans in place for it... their speedy response, ability to put troops into play, gain total air superiority so quickly and essentially guarantee they will take either all over Georgia or the oil pipeline and all provinces on its own boarders all say they were ready for anything like this.

Georgia really should have left well enough alone... at least until they joined NATO.

Former Member

Senor Miguel wrote: »

it's still not clear who is the aggressor imo, georgia claims that russia have been funding the separatists in south ossetia for some time so they may well be using the olympics as an opportunity to respond to that provocation. either way it's not a smart move for georgia i'd agree.

Judging by the papers I would say for once it seems Russia, while not entirely blameless, are not the villain here.

Georgia had clearly planned this carefully to coincide with the Olympics, in the hope that they'd get away with it. By all accounts they tried to take the capital city by force and without regard for civilians. 'Ethnic cleansing' is a phrase that apparently wouldn't be out of place there. So Russia seems to have done the right thing, to a degree at least.

Former Member

There's nothing right about what's going on.

Former Member

There is nothing wrong about war, but if Russia is telling the truth you have to wonder whether what they've done is the lesser of two evils.

Former Member

Nothing right at all. Name a country which hasn't an evil. Maybe Ireland drops a bomb on your home and kills everyone you love, your mother is sat outside covered in blood beckoning crying to soldiers but they just look on.

Picture yourself there, picture your family dead, because it's happening right now to a lot of people.

Former Member

hopefully the international community and the UN will pull their finger out and resolve the situation quickly. honestly, what must people think of us, they all getting bombed and shot and the world just sits about and watches it on tv.

Former Member

Which is why (if Russia is telling the truth) what they're doing is certainly a better option to them doing nothing?

I'm not suggesting the situation is ideal. But it certainly seems as if Georgia took the opportiuntiy of the Olympics to try to take the province by force, and with little regard for civilians. If the counter action of Russia prevents Georgia destroying the region and killing all those it sees as dissidents, then it's not the worse scenario that could be.

Former Member

Russia is advancing past the conflict zone into Georgia and has bombed civilian buildings. They've got an agenda, much like the Georgian government does.

A bit like taking back northern Ireland and then advancing into Liverpool/Manchester killing civilians on the way.

Don't try to justify any of their actions.

People say "the USA does this" or "Georgia did that" who are the USA and Georgia? The people? Not the people. The people "doing" things are not the civilians, they are governments which with agendas. Agendas which conflict with ALL civilians.

If both countries had people's best interest at heart none of this would be happening.

It's all very very wrong.

Former Member

So two thousand people have thus far been killed (it just said on Sky News), and tens of thousands have been forced to flee.

Yet Sunday morning, half the papers have full front pages for the 50th time about Madeleine fucking McCann. "Let's Pray This Is Her", "Was This The Man Who Took Maddy?". For FUCK'S sake. How is ONE four-year-old kid who disappeared over a year ago more significant than the TENS OF THOUSANDS of people who are about to die?? Fucking media.

Former Member

Yeah I noticed that in the Saturday papers. 2000 people died in what might potentially become a full scale war, and the most controversial version of the biggest sporting event in the world has one of the most impressive opening ceremonies ever, and all of the shitty tabloids have a non-story about some little kid who went missing over a year ago. With the exception of the Daily Mail, which I have rare praise for.

Former Member

I'm With Stupid wrote: »

Yeah I noticed that in the Saturday papers. 2000 people died in what might potentially become a full scale war, and the most controversial version of the biggest sporting event in the world has one of the most impressive opening ceremonies ever, and all of the shitty tabloids have a non-story about some little kid who went missing over a year ago. With the exception of the Daily Mail, which I have rare praise for.

For a year now I've been so utterly confused and bewildered by the Madeline McCann coverage. One fucking kid goes missing in a foreign country, how on earth does that warrant front-page coverage every single week for over a year? Kids go missing all the time, and get killed, to relatively fuck-all attention. It seems pretty tasteless and messed up to prioritise one random 4-year-old kid who disappeared over a year ago over the thousands of Georgians murdered in the past 3 days.

Former Member

Aladdin wrote: »

Judging by the papers....

c'mon that's never a good idea georgia is being used as a pawn by the west it's that simple, and russia's having none of it. let's pray for a quick end and that noone else gets dragged into this conflict.

Former Member

Despite reports Georgia has withdrawn from South Ossetia, it looks like things in Abkhazia are heating up and Russia has launched a naval blockade of Georgia.

The Georgians may played a big role is starting this conflict but Russia is doing her best to escalate it.

Former Member

Russia is doing its best to end the conflict... once and for all. Like any military force they have to think about the big picture and the long term effects, they can't just give Georgia a slap on the wrists, because if thats all they get they will do this sort of thing over and over and over again and Russia cant allow that... Put simply, by the end of this war, Russia will make sure once and for all, Georgia can not now nor possibly ever again threaten Russia or its people again. It is basic military strategy, they aim to win a war that was brought to them, not one they started.

If they had simply allowed the Georgians conquest of the province, that would have been unacceptable NOT that anyone would have cared or even bothered to find out what was going on in Georgia in that situation, the only reason anyone cares is because the Russians did choose to intervene.

Former Member

It's not like this started from no-where. There's been tension in the area for ages, with Ossetian guerilla's hitting Georgia and let's not forget the bombing of Georgia's oil pipeline a few years ago, which had Russian Intelligence's dirty little hands all over it. And whilst the BBC persists in calling Russian troops staioned in Ossetia before the clashes peacekeepers, that's not how Georgia sees it

Georgia doesn't accept Russian hegemony of the area, which may be naive. However, the Russians and Ossetians have been goading Georgia into war for ages, and finally Georgia had enough. Though quite how they thought Russia would ignore them (Olympic games or not) beats me and anyone who's looked at Russia military strategy knows that they make the Waffen SS look like the Salvation Army, so Russia was bound to go in hard.

Former Member

Let's not call this a full scale war, Georgia trying to defend itself against Russia is like what would happen if Scotland tried to Europe, they're hopelessly outmatched and like I said, have bitten off far more than they can chew.

Former Member

Despite the inevitable local complications this seems to me like a pretty standard piece of superpower/regional power strategy. The area is fucked up generally but has strategic and economic importance. the US/NATO have made a play for the territory over the past ten years (military support/training, courting alliance), which if formalized would have been a significant setback for Russian interests/defensive integrity. Prompted by assertive Georgian activity, they have called US/NATO's play and seized the vital area. The Russians knew the US wouldn't do anything overt in response so it was relatively risk free for them, and has sent a message to other potential "defectors" and breakaway regions. Essentially, another fairly typical example of the US casually offering "support" to potential allies/neutrals and when the crunch comes doing nothing, and allowing the potential allies to be ruthlessly crushed by the relevant rival.

Thank fuck Georgia wasn't accepted into NATO before this.

Former Member

carlito wrote: »

Thank fuck Georgia wasn't accepted into NATO before this.

See other thread about being worried about nuclear war....I'd become worried.

Former Member

I get scared a lot latley.

I've got such a gorgeous girlfriend and i care about her so much i'm starting to realise how much i have to lose and when i see so much pain on the news where people are crying over dead bodies it only makes me wonder when is it going to happen to me.

Every 100 years it seems every country has a major war so it's as if i'm waiting for it to happen. The only problem is, a real war with Britain would mean nuclear missiles. We're not a very big island.

I could be interpreted as scaremongering, but i think being ignorant to the possibilities will leave you with your pants down eventually.

I just can't imagine such a horrible existence if some of the terrors people have faced in the past happened to me.

Former Member

No major countries, like Russia or America or China would use Nukes against us or us against them, the response would be equally as devasting, we have enough nukes to wipe out an entire hemisphere if we so wanted as they could... it is only small nations with psycho leaders or terrorists building a nuke of their own that is to be feared.

And right now... we are in a major war... its Called Iraq and as much as Gordon Brown talks about withdrawing troops... i dont trust anything Gordon Brown says, except when he says, "We're listening" because that is what he does, he listens, then he ignores what he hears and does whatever he wants anyways! But our troops are locked in a quagmire and British troops arent coming home... its our Vietnam (though with Americans in there with us). After this, i wouldnt expect to see much British military displays beyond bombing raides for a decade or so.

Former Member

you could argue that MAD has prevented a global war since WWII, in my mind the next war isn't going to be fought openly with conventional weapons, it's going to be an economic one with lots of localised proxy wars aimed at controlling natural resources. if you think about it this actually started about 5 years ago and will only continue escalating as both sides get more desperate. the middle east is fucked and that's even before imadinnerjacket starts mouthing off about blowing up israel.

Former Member

It certainly seems to me that although Georgia started this action Russia have been pushing them towards it for a long time.

By the sound of it they have been handing out Russian passports in South Asetia for reasons that seem a little dodgy. Surely loads of immigrants into Russia wouldnt be popular, it can only be so that they have a constitutional obligation to help them and therefore justification for military action.