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There are people on this board that sound as if this is just what they've been waiting for - some kind of justification for war, and that if innocents get caught up - then so what? they're over in a country thousands of miles away..
I don't have all the answers, no-one does, I'm not as far left as a lot of people - and I do actually believe that some sort of action needs to be taken against the terrorists, but if that results in more innocents dying then I feel we have reduced ourselves to the level of these scum. If it was an 'attack on all civilisation' then what is it that makes us civilised? Democracy - that's a joke in today's day and age, give me proper democracy where I can have a real voice in how the country is run rather than a vote every four years for a candidate who is in the pocket of corporations and who is virtually identical in their policies, for fear of upsetting the apple cart.
Again - I apologise, I had a spate of very angry postings, but there was stuff written that made me very (unusually for me) angry.
Whilst our western style democrosy's may be far from ideal, one things for sure we have a far greater opportunity to influence politics than some of the countries from the middle east, whose policies seem to be dictated by religious beliefs. At least we CAN vote. We can also travel where we please, work where we please in fact do pretty much anything we like. I am proud to live in a truly multicultural society in the UK to, and the US is the same. It is these very values that we MUST protect.
I'm starting to believe this whole thing is an archetictural question...Kabul just wants the rest of the world to look like they do...pun intended.
I'll post a cartoon that has the liberals in Berkely, PRK, in an uproar...enjoy.
http://sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2001/09/19/darrinbellcartoon.jpg
Diesel
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I think however that all the screaming for war is a bad idea. Nobody has stopped to consider what has happened in history before now. No army has ever defeated the people of Afghanistan. The Soviet Union, with it's enormous pool of manpower, resources and military technology withdrew with 60,000 dead. a British task force in the 19th century of nearly 10,000 troops was annihilated.
Many people will simply say that we have much better technology and that we can't lose. But what good is that technology without a target? The Afghans are typically very ferocious and very hard to find. Their country has no infrastructure both miliatary or civilian to speak of. No fuel depots, no radar stations, no SAM sites, nothing that would make a good target. The Russians destroyed all those but still lost.
If this is the case then what do we do? Do we send in a massive force and simply follow a "scorched earth policy"? Leaving no stone unturned, or do we simply nuke them? With nothing apart from the remnants of cities to nuke I think we face a problem.
Sunrise on Kabul should be early tomorrow!
Diesel
88888888
Nobody had flown a plane into each of the WTC towers until last week either. SO your point is what - that the Afghan's are invincible? Wasn't that kind of what teh US thought "no-one would DARE attack our homesoil"?
There a several posts on this thread shouting for war, and several who see war as wrong. Now I can understand both points of view (I like to think I can have a balance outlook) but I HAVE to ask.
What is it that makes war so bad? Was the fact that we fought WW2 a bad thing? Or has the world benefiteed from that?
I don't think that anyone who has called for a war is in denial. I suspect that they are more than aware of the consequences of warfare - people die - because some have already fought in Vietnam, and because we just aren't that stupid or naive. But on some occasions war becomes a neccessity, this is apparently one of those occasions.
Not least the hundreds of 1000s of ordinary Afghans on the brink of starvation in central Afghanistan.There has been no rain for 3 years,crops have failed and the last of the aid agencies have pulled out.
They are too poor to flee the country and now that winter approaches they will be stranded in remote valleys dying of hunger.
These people despise the Taliban and its extreme,ultra -conservative views.
Many Afghans (not least the the Northern Alliance) view the Taleban as a Pakistani backed operation.
The whole region around the Afghan/Pakistan border is populated by Pashtuns-extremely independent minded people.
Under a treaty brokered by the Brits a 100 years ago the Pashtun areas of Pakistan were due to be returned to Afgahnistan-this hasnt happened .Many view Pakistans support for the Taleban as a way of having a friendly neighbour who would hopefully crack down on Pashtun separatists.
I suspect that this policy is going to backfire in a large way.
Fab - is England going to help sort it out without involving Wales and Scotland? Great. That's the problem with some Americans - they needed to be told on TV where Afghanistan was and they Mistake Britain for England DUH!
Diesel
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So ignoring this action against the WORLD would be better?
To be in competition creates territorial solidarity and I hope that what we are witnessing is nothing less than a 'phoney' war as depicted in Orwell's 1984. But then again, I guess it is. The war has already begun. and it will continue....and continue. Oppression will continue to rule and the masses kept happy, and all will be well. But then I never did believe him....
I guess it's pretty serious. Your views please!
Iraq will be next...and this time we'll dust Sadam off and feed him to the hogs.
Saudia Arabia is the core villan in all this...see my other post on the subject...and until they are dealt with nothing will have been settled.
It's US against THEM...can't change the fact and there is no way to 'fix' the problem...just break THEM like the did US! (I know, sounds kind of trite to me too.)
If we have to round them all up and put them into detainment centers (aka, concentration camps) then that will be done...I'm betting that some of our prisons will be vacated and used for detainment and quarentine from other US prisoners.
Hold onto your drawers cousins...tomorrow will be even more interesting...maybe they'll put a camera in the nose of one of the missles.
Diesel
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and the one piece of advice they have - don't send ground troups.
What's Bush doing? Sending in ground troups. Duh!
Russians were attempting to occupy Afghanistan, the US wont be..Its a very different thing.
Russian military of the 80's = poop
US military of 2001 = good
You should also remember that the Russians had effectively beaten the Mujahadin in the mid 80's and they only started losing when the US assistance started pouring in. They wont have US assistance this time.
I havent read the paper yet this morning but im pretty sure Bush hasnt ordered an invasion as I slept. Why dont we just wait and see what he does before claiming hes doing something.
bring it on lets start world war three
and have a blast
ka-boom
Diesel
88888888
Do you know what a nuclear war would bring?
You may wipe out all the kinds of people you hate but you'll also wipe out all the people you love too.
This won't be like Hiroshima - this would be worse.
If you agree with the invasion or whatever you want to call it ... the war on terrorism, then fine but advocating the use of nuclear weapons is silly.
I think you need to read a bit more history. Afghanistan has been defeated. More than once.
In addition, until roughly 1981, the Soviet Union was knocking the stuffing out of the Afghani rebels. It wasn't until the USA supplied them with missiles, and the SAS trained them that they began to give as good as they got. Who is helping them now?
Clean nukes then...neutron bombs...unfortunately there isn't much 'over there' worth protecting from a blast.
If they keep up the campeigh you will see a great cleansing worldwide...and some folks look foreward to it.
Being a parent, grandparent, lover of all mankind and generally a 'liberal' I really hate to see it happen...it is just that I recognize that it will happen and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to stop it...the genie has been out of the bomb for a long time now!
Diesel
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"Let's roll......" Todd Beamer, American Hero
One that stops at borders?
This is indeed WAR...our 'allies' in occupied palestine will be sucking hind tit over this one!
What do you mean by sucking Hind tit?
You were quick off the mark weren't you ?
12.09.01 Quote
"US is at war with islam whether we like it or not...we will nuke Afganistan, et al."
Who else will you be Nuking. Is America going to use Nuclear weapons?
Quote "We aren't dragging anyone into war with US...we are going to nuke the bastards and begin the great war against islam."
Thought this wasn't a war against Islam?
[This message has been edited by byny (edited 17-10-2001).]
[This message has been edited by byny (edited 17-10-2001).]
islam aggacked US so it most certainly is a war against islam...but we will say a lot of things abut it not being so.
islam has nothing to offer the world in my opinion and considering what has happened and the 80+ approval of 911 events by moslems it doesn't bother me in the least to say that they must go...deportation back to their sandlot is quite allright...but let's use ships...flying is something they have a problem with.
Otherwise I am quite indifferent towards moslems and their religion...whether the live or die is their own business and I only concern myself with them at all because the issue is thrust upon US by 'them' and must be resolved.
ol salamibentlabbia is now declared a 'holy warrior' by islam...and they rush to do his bidding...even from the grave. Coming from watabbism out of Saudi Arabia, the most radical branch of islam and the state religion there, it is obvious that the holders/keepers of islam's holy places are the ones in control of the world terror currently under way...neutron bombs would effectively settle the matter and there would be all those sites that could be visited later...by tourist of course!
This century/millenium is just not off to a peacfull start...and is geting very dangerous very fast...wonder what will happen when the junkies realize that most of the world supply of heroin is gone in a flash with the bombing in Kabul? And there are other problems...and on and on and on...!
Diesel
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Each person is born in a circumstance which is not of his own choosing. The religion of his family or the ideology of the state is thrust upon him from the very begining of his existence in this world. By the time he reaches his teens, he is usually fully brainwashed into believing that the beliefs of his particular society are the correct beliefs that everyone should have. However, when some people mature and are exposed to other belief systems, they begin to question the validity of their own beliefs.
The seekers of truthoften reach a point of confusion upon realizing that each and every religion, sect, idiology and philosophy claims to be the only one correct way for man. Indeed, they all contain some valid and reasonable points and they all encourage people to do good.
Like every other religion or Philosophy, Islam also claims to be the one and only true way to God.
In this respect it is no different from other systems
I am totally indifferent to what they are all about...don't give a fart in a windstorm about what they believe or worship. It is simply a matter of them or US...and I preffer US!
It is doubtfull that any of us on this board can imagine the hardships that the people of Afganistan live under...quite frankly the stone age looks more appealing from here. Howeve, looking at history it appears to me that islam drags all of its followers down to this level eventually...just my observation.
And if you look at the old pictures Afganistan was a gardenland...and there were many beautiful buildings...today the mosks are about all that is left and they are filled with the taliban cuddleing in fear of the bombs and thinking that 'ala' is protecting them...there is and will be no safe haven for them...surrender is not even an apparent option right now.
(how do you surrender when your flag is just a white rag?)
It appears that refined anthrax came out of the laboratories of Iraq...so guess who gets the next visit...time for the neutron bombs...don't want to hurt those marvelous archaeological monuments now do we?
Diesel
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but then you say that you think Islam drags them down. The answer is not to wish them all dead or to say if they are all nuked then who cares, they are still people and they are victims of their circumstance.