If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Options
Up to 25% of electorate 'might vote BNP'
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4915096.stmAnger with the main parties has led more people to consider voting for the British National Party, a report for a social policy research group says.
The Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust said up to 25% of voters said they "might vote" for the far-right party.
I shall now take a long look at those who argue that the best strategy to deal with fascists and racists is to let them speak freely because their arguments are so easily deconstructed and exposed as rubbish and blah blah blah...
Face it: the masses are asses. The more exposure lowlife scumbags get, the more support they'll gain.
But no matter: carry on defending the right of fascist scum to peddle filth masquerading as caring policies for (white) Britain. :rolleyes:
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
0
Comments
I don’t think we have any choice but to defend the right of extremist parties to exist; whether it’s the BNP or the SWP in a democracy that values free speech even extremists have a right to assembly.
And banning the BNP would be a bad idea. It would significantly increase their support – outlawing them would give them enormous exposure and allow them to masquerade as defenders of free speech. And I’d rather the BNP have some kind of public face; where we know the names of their leaders, a website to view their disgusting ideas, etc – I think that’s definitely preferable to an underground secretive organisation. Further, banning the BNP would probably translate into the BNP becoming even more extreme – and with the rise in support that banning them would bring that would be a worrying prospect.
Then when you ban the BNP, what’s next? UKIP? Respect? Plenty of people in Respect share pretty similar views on gays and Jews to your average BNP member...The precedent you set by banning political parties even if they are vile scumbags is pretty dangerous. What’s to stop future governments banning political parties for purely political reasons?
Anyway the rise of the BNP is completely exaggerated and despite the scaremongering I think it’s predicted success in the local elections is being overstated. Admittedly, since 1997 the BNP’s popularity has increased significantly – although I think that’s explained more by the Labour government’s failures than support for fascism. But lets not panic, compared to equivalent far-right groups in much of Europe the BNP here are extremely insignificant, 25% certainly sounds like scaremongering.
How great is Democracy, eh? *Rolls Eyes*
The BNP should have a right to exist so long as they don't spread any racist or fascist filth. I'm not so much calling for an immediate and permanent ban of the party but as for a ban on all racist and fascist talk, statements and claims- something many here defend.
The problem here is not that up to 25% of people are racists or fascists, but that they are so profoundly obtuse that they think the BNP speaks the voice of the people and share their concerns about poverty, inequality, the environment, inner city misery etc.
The BNP only has one real agenda: fascism/racism. The rest of their manifesto is nothing but a crowd pleasing cut-and-paste job that a seven year old could put together. As if they really gave a shit, or more to the point, knew how to address such issues as inner city poverty, unemployment, education or the environment.
So let the idiots vote for the BNP if they want and to think their repatriation policies would come to nothing if that party ever gained power and that there is nothing wrong with voting for them as a warning to the mainstream parties.
I'm already on my way to the printers to place an order for 50 million "I TOLD YOU SO" cards.
Is it so fucking difficult to understand that fascism and racism are completely different to any other political movement or belief in existence? That they are an abomination that must be removed from the face of the earth?
I'll ask again: why would anyone think that any other political belief or party "would be next"? There is a fundamental difference between fascism/racism and everything else on the face of the planet. It is not the same. It can be treated differently. And nobody else needs worrying that "they might be next".
If youve lived in an area all your life then suddenly there is a large infux of forign people in a very short space of time, taking up services shuch as doctors and housing, and youve got a longer wait or less acess to those services. Has crime incresed in that area ? (Dagernam)
The chip shop you used to use is now something else your friends and neighbours have moved out, the area changes.
Years ago Southall wass full of white people, now theres hardly any they all moved out (white flight) as far as Id be conserned those people who moved out wernt evil racists but people who wanted to live in an area they felt comfortable.
Yes the BNP are racist, especialy their claim that mix race people are tragic victims, and all of their serious supporters will be racist or worse a lot of them out and out Nazis.
By condeming any body who is uncomfortable with large imigration into smaller areas as an evil racist your actually playing into their hands (BNP)people dont feel they can make public objections with out being called racist then they might just make a mark next to the BNP at ellection time, rather than protesting.
Personally as the second most crowded country in europe I think we shouldnt take any more imigrants, they all want to live in the South East putting pressure on services and pushing house prices up.
Its funny how most of the liberal interlectuals who loudly condem, the BNP move to quiet mostly white areas when they have the money (Billy Bragg)
And loudly condem those poorer than them selves who cant afford to move
Who decides what’s racist? Some people think the Conservative party is racist. Some people think UKIP. Some don’t. I think Respect, like the BNP is racist.
Respect is a coalition between Marxists from the SWP and Islamic fundamentalists from the religious right, to quote Nick Cohen 'As with the BNP, at least some of the people who voted for Respect must have known perfectly well that their party was unlikely to be an unequivocal supporter of the ideals of liberty, equality and fraternity.' Ironically the values of the target constituency of the BNP aren't that dissimilar to that of Respect. In a democracy however both have a legitimate right to air their views - however vile they are.
No. At least, I don't.
I literally "understand" their reasoning but it does not compute with me. The people I know who vote/are planning to vote BNP (and I'm sad to say I know/have met quite a few loud and proud BNP supporters during my University days) have no reasoning to back up their political persuasion other than that their jobs were somehow stolen from them and their own twisted logic that their area is being "dragged down" by anyone other than their knuckle-dragging selves. Which I can't agree with, but if they see it that way then no reasoned debate is going to change their mind.
I agree to a great extent with the original post, though I definitely have my reservations about pushing such a vitriolic, hate-filled party "underground". There is no way that an outright banning would have a positive effect. At least that I can see.
As for comparing BNP supporters to Nazis, I think that's a wee bit off the mark to be honest. I don't think that either have any positive attributes, but if you scratch the surface I really wouldn't say they were much alike at all.
If it turns out that Respect is also a racist and/or fascist party I'd be happy to speak up against the existence of their policies too. But until you can prove that to me, I find it nothing short of extraordinary that you can put Respect- or anyone else, SWP, the commies or whoever rocks your boat- on the same level as the BNP.
The BNP stands apart and alone in British politics. They are outside of politics as far as I'm concerned. Their policies are by their non-human nature outside the political system.
Which is always a view that worries me - that they're is some left-wing elite who know the correct way and that those who disagree are somehow stupid. Its the next step to getting rid of votes and having those who have the correct views to rule over society, for the good of the people. The fact that's such a common view amongst some segments of society is just as damaging to democracy as some smaller segments voting for facist parties.
If the BNP clean their act I'd have no problem with them. But quite how anyone could defend their "right" to suggest Asians and blacks are responsible for rapes and crimewaves or Muslims are terrorists who should be kicked out is really beyond me.
But what makes me laugh the most is the usage of the word 'democracy' when justifying freedom of speech for such scum.
In the hypothetical case that BNP won a general election, does anyone think there would be another democratic general election 5 years later? :rolleyes:
So if youd been born and raised in southall or another area that was mostly white, but in a few years became almost exclusivly Asian, would you stay or move, if you say move then your just the same as the BNP votors.
If you say youd stay I probably wouldnt beleive you as almost 100% of white people moved out of Southall and other areas. Of course there are areas that became properly multi cultural where only about half the white people moved out.
Do you have any sympathy with country people who cant aford to get a house because of londoners and 2nd homers moving in ? Oh of course its allright to have issues with that because its not racist.
Its true that a lot of BNP supporters are Nazis just look at stormfront british section, althrough its not oficialy their policy of course.
Fascism, may revolve around the concept of a single leader who makes the final decisions on policy, but so does the New Labour government. Fascism may support big business and job creation with regulation of corporate means, but so does New Labour. In fact Fascism and New Labour have alot on common and since the Core elements of Fascism in politics are exactly as we have in New Labour to ban a part for been Fascists is impossible and impracticle.
Yes, When pushed to its extremes Fascism has elements of evil racism, but then when you push Communism to its equal extremes it becomes a party of forced Atheism that will execute any ne who is a disident of the party line.
If you want them to be censored so they can not say or act in racist ways, i am all for that, but to ban them for been Fascists as a political ideology means you have to ban communism and any other political party considered to be anywhere near either end of the spectrum.
(Notice i was refering to fascism as an ideology not a specific event in hirtory of a party turning Fascism into something to suit their own purposes such as Nazism)
Nobody disputes the fact that the BNP are scum, I just don't see any merit in forcing them underground. Further, even though in banning the BNP we would have good intentions we cannot call ourselves a liberal democracy if we ban political parties that we don't like.
Anyway it’s not just me that has those views on Respect. Peter Tatchell, Nick Cohen and numerous bloggers have documented the links between Respect/SWP and various far-right Islamist groups.
Take a look at,
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/david_t/2006/04/the_alliance.html
http://www.petertatchell.net/politics/adamyosef.htm
http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2006/02/21/respect_homophobes_yes_zionists_no.php
To an extent you’re right – but if you support free speech, equal rights for women and you’re not homophobic or anti-Semitic Respect pose a similar, if not greater danger than the BNP to those values. By Respect – I largely mean the fundamentalist far-right Islamist groups that elements of the far-left have formed a bizarre alliance with.
Take restrictions on free speech – the classic hallmark of any fascist regime is extreme infringements on free press and freedom of expression. The cartoons controversy – those demanding ‘guilty’ editors be sacked or killed and newspapers containing the image be pulped weren’t members of the BNP. Nor were the thousands demanding Salmon Rushdie be killed for exercising his right to free speech members of the BNP.
We have far far more to fear from Labour in terms of civil liberties than 100 times the BNP we have now.
I would stay; whether or not you believe that is your business.
For what it's worth, the area of Newcastle in which I live - when at home - is an area that I suspect is similar to those you're talking about. It was once a fairly standard "working class" area and then when it became depressed many of the white, working class families moved out leaving terraces of boarded up houses etc. It is now largely populated by Asian families and Congolese asylum seekers, yet my parents chose willingly to move to this "ethnic melting pot" to use my mother's description. It is only now beginning to drag itself up by its bootstraps and believe me the BNP and people of that ilk have had sweet fuck all to do with these recent improvements.. I think my parents (and I certainly) prefer it to the middle class, commuter village where I grew up with one black kid in the school and all that stereotypical jazz. But then I get a lot out of living here, most invaluable is the slow and steady continued broadening of my mind.
I'm a little offended at your insinuation that if I say I'd be happy to stay in such an area as it loses its white-folk I'm a liar, and if I say I'd move then I'm a closet BNP sympathiser/supporter. Nice, that. :yeees:
I'm also not sure I understand your point (and its relevance) re: the outpricing of people in rural communities. Could you explain in more detail, please?
An indiviual is intelligent, people are stupid!!
And what gives them exposure more than having the main parties gnashing their teeth and wailing like a banshee?
The reason why poor white people in this country vote BNP is because they have had 40 years of their government and their city councils shitting on them from a great height. And, like it or not, in places like Bradford and Oldham the ethnic communities get grant after grant after grant whilst the poor white areas can whistle for regeneration money. Funnily enough people then notice that the mayor of Bradford is Asian, and start to get itchy about what they understandably but mistakenly perceive to be preferential treatment.
Perhaps if people listened to why people were voting BNP, instead of decrying everyone and anyone as racist, then something would be done. As it stands the only way poor white communities get listened to is if they shock their local politicians into doing something.
As for iknowyourmum, that's the quality of drivel one has come to expect from him. All those dirty immigrants driving out good white people indeed. I'd rather live in somewhere like Benwell than somewhere like where my mum and dad now live, where young Asian families are hounded out of their homes because "they" aren't welcome "here".
White Working Class Britain will vote for the BNP as a protest to show their anger at Labour. Bit like LePen in France a few years back, flash in the pan. BNP will be the same.
The problem, of course, is that Asians are responsible for rapes in many communities, and they are breeding and harbouring terrorists, especially in Lancashire and Yorkshire. What the BNP say about the situation in Keighley is true, I'm afraid, and its unfortunate that the main parties won't solve it because it allows the BNP to turn the situation to their own racist advantage.
Ann Cryer, traditional Labour MP for Keighley and one of the few in the party who still has morals, has been campaigning for years about the problems in the Asian communities in her town. She rightly points out that female circumcision is a big problem, so are forced marriages and "honour" killings. She rightly points out that a community that forces its children to go to Pakistan and bring back an entire family of people who can't speak English is importing big problems for itself. The considered response to this constructive criticism from a person who has done more for the ethnic people in her town than anyone else? "She's racist". Right-o.
Is it any wonder the BNP get a foothold?
Taking Bradford as an example, it isn't the white people who are having the riots, is it? It isn't the white people blowing up tube trains, is it? And in Nottingham it isn't the white people fuelling the gangland murder spree.
I don't think colour has anything to do with it, but culture does IMHO. There is a culture in Bradford of seeing women as inferior, there is a culture of shouting vile racist and sexist abuse at any young white women in that city, and following that abuse up with threatening behaviour and actions. The BNP point this out for their own racist agenda, but they are only allowed to do so because every other politician in the city pretends that there isn't a problem and don't do anything about it.
Not all ethnic people, or a majority of them, or even a large minority, are like this but the behaviour of young Asian and black men is a big problem, and decrying people as "racist" for pointing it out is grossly counter-productive.
Unfortunately you have Blair with his quasi Thatcherite ideals who is making the working wo/man worse off.
I am scared if the BNP get in, firstly because I don't believe Griffin is competant to run the country, he is too anti gay and I am worried how far civil liberties will be erroded further under BNP rule.
I think he'd get torn apart by Jeremy Paxman and by critics if he were allowed to speak more freely, that is why I support letting them speak. Otherwise they use that to gather support too.
As Kermit has said, we need to listen to people, the poor are getting shat upon.
The BNP's material has yet to impress me, they obviously aren't targetting the academics. It's sad because so many people need help and the BNP are taking advantage of this for their own selfish aims...
People will be easily fooled and manipulated when they feel strongly about something or are experiencing hardship. If the BNP were right, if inequalities and poverty were caused by darkies, towelheads and pak*s coming to this glorious white land and spoiling it for all of us, then they'd have a right to say so. But it isn't, and so they shouldn't.
Throughout history mankind has proven to be extremely gullible and prone to manipulation. Those of you who said it's best to let the BNP speak freely and then deconstruct their arguments and expose them as liars haven't done a terribly good job so far of deconstructing and exposing, if you pardon my saying so.
Better get your act together because the ''let them speak'' policy has so far spectacularly backfired.
I cannot believe what I’m reading. Yes, people experiencing hardship will be manipulated by opportunistic political parties – but that’s hardly the monopoly of the BNP. Politicians of all different parties will exploit different situations and attempt to capitalise on problems facing society for their own benefit. The BNP of course shamelessly exploit more so than any other political party and inevitably incite tension wherever they go but that’s not sufficient reasoning to ban them. There are existing laws prohibiting inciting violence or murder and inciting racial hatred.
Should we ban the Flat Earth Society too?
Bizarrely I seem to remember you defending Hamas following their victory in Palestinian elections – given that Hamas is even more extreme than the BNP would you have advocated banning Hamas from even standing in the elections? Interestingly when there was talk of Hizb ut-Tahrir being banned – a party as vile as the BNP, Clare Short was among the first to defend the group.
You cannot honestly say that you believe in democracy if you will happily ban a political party that you disagree with. Forgetting the unpleasantness of the BNP from a completely neutral standpoint – we both disagree strongly with the BNP and despise its ideals. However – because we disagree with this party, and because most of the population disagree with this party why should we adopt the persona of this party by banning things we disagree with? A BNP government would ban political parties it didn’t like, why should we sink to their level? I really do wish at times we had an equivalent of the First Amendment guaranteeing free speech and the freedom of assembly, a codified constitution recognising the inalienable rights of free speech and the right of people to peacefully assemble would swiftly silence these totalitarian ideas of yours.
If you pick and choose what political parties can and can not be allowed and pick and choose who and who does not have a right to speech, then it merely becomes degrees. Any Right wing party of any kind can be banned, or any left wing party of any kind can be banned. Any party with ties to terrorist groups/freedom fighters (depending on who you support or if your a hypocrit when its to do with another race/religion/countries politics) could be banned or made illegal.
What would we do with all the people who support the BNP? Lock them up in jail, because they certainly wouldnt go away quietly they would go kicking and screaming, probably breaking the law happily to make a statement about their party been made illegal in a free society. Do we then censor the news so they cannot report on anything to do with the BNP also? What else do we censor?
Banning the BNP creates more problems, more ethical and political dilemmas and opens a door to a world where any one can see the need to censor, ban or make illegal anything they disagree with. It woul dbe the Mary Whitehouse society.
No, it is exactly why it is important to stand up and fight their ideas and trounce the ideas.
Banning it does nothing. All banning it does is prove these peoples' point.
Part of their argument is that ethnic people are taking over this country, and driving out white people. In what way do you think banning a view would change this?
Especially given that in many northern towns most people already think that the ethic people are taking over.
Out of interest, should far-left parties be banned too? After all, communism just preys on inequality and hardship to further its own damaging agenda.
And who are you to decide who is right and who is wrong?
Spouting racist and fascist lies should be though.
No. In an ideal world neither Likud nor Hamas would exist. But those parties are not about fascism/racism. As I said before, fascism/racism stands apart from anything else on earth, regardless of how repugnant.
It's not about political parties I disagree with. There are countless political parties I disagree with, some of them profoundly, and yet I have no problem with them existing. As I have said many times now, a distinction can and should be made between fascism/racism and anything else.