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Its interesting that you clearly see these 'migrant' communities as not French and not part of French society.
At what point might they become French do you think, third generation? Fourth? or never?
I never use smilies.
.. and how were they treated before the 1998 World Cup?
Perhaps you should see what you can find about the build-up to this event and the comments from many of the players involved.
Erm... compared to them you have even more. So why are you complaining?
Who pointed this out?
Le Pen was one of the two candidates in the last round of the Presidential Election. This was before the riots.
Again, you show your lack of any historical knowledge (i.e. anything before Nov 1st 2005), it really would be worth you doing a little reading up on this issue before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
As I said earlier your racist views just expose your ignorance on the real problems here...
And you know this because you have asked them, right?
They are French. I am afraid that the colour of their skin or their religion has nothing to do with their nationality- despite what some would claim.
Stormfront forums are that way --->
You will find many like minded individuals there (if you can speak about such people having a mind) and be far happier.
When these people want to become French they will become French through assimilation into French society when they want to. They will become French when they accecpt French society and when both they dont distinguish themselves and different and the French people dont distinguish them as any different. People are people and race is only an issue when you make it an issue.
How do you know I have more than these people in France? You dont know where I live, if I have a job or what I have! I am complaining about their violent uncivilised behaviour, not about what they or I have or have not got.
I knew that, what is your point?
I wouldnt be accecpted on Stormfront. My father is black.
...and French society makes it an issue when is suggests that people cannot follow their own cultural needs by outlawing headscarves etc.
When the French Govt talks about "becoming French" it means that they expect people to do just that and to lose all their other cultural and relgious identity.
What they miss is that people cannot change the colour of their skin and French society still disciminated on this basis. It is therefore not possible to assimilate because they are always treated differently.
Erm... because you don't have rioters in your streets? Or maybe because you have access to websites like this...?
Erm.. how about that France has a large racist population? Thus refuting your claim that the reason that 25% of a poll support Le Pen intervening was because "the violent scumbag behaviour of these migrant communities. They are shit stirring with the French public who wont tollerate it."
It looks like it's the skin tone and relgion which they won't tolerate. Not the violence.
.. and "some of my best friends are Muslims"...
Every society has prejudices. I am not denying that they dont exist but lets be realistic about this, 95% of people are not racist and if the media would stop making such a hugh issue of the difference between people then people would stop making an issue of it too. You are wrong in saying people are always treated differently they arnt most people dont treat you any different.
Culture and religion are the problems here. The would would be a better place without religions so I dont disagree with the French approach and culture is meaningless today, we live in a globalised world and our culture is so similar.
There was rioters out on my streets only a few months ago. Scumbag loyalists who live in my area. Me having access to websites like this means nothing. If you have ever travelled in your life you would find that the internet is everywhere and some of the poorest people in the world have the internet. Am I supposed to pay for this website or something.
Society doenst tollerate religion anymore, not just Muslim religion but religion in general. If these people were in any way religious why are they out rioting on the streets? These people are scum and not one bit religious just like the "protestants" and "catholics" in Northern Ireland.
It is wrong to vote for these extreme right wingers before and after what has happened but these communities are only making problems worse for themselves. More and more French will vote for these right wingers if this continues.
I am sure that these riots have nothing to do with the french rejection of "terrorism" and the rejection of the EU constitution either. Wouldn't a nice, right wing government just love to go balls deep into the EU to secure it's borders?
I did say once in the EU they have free movement and no boarder control, thsat inclused spain and italy. where italy boarder other nations and spain boarder france the controls are very slim and along east europe there is hardly anything, its easy to avoid and smuggle in and out of the countries. the iron curtain is gone!
I'd love France to declare itself out of the EU. Build huge defnses round it's borders... and have it's armed forces crushed in seconds. Again.
Generraly, in the UK I would agree with that (although I'd say the percentile was slightly lower than that.
But we are talking about a country where there is larger support for Le Pen...
But we are different. I agree that we should focus on the similarities but we do have different cultures and different expectations/behaviour as a result. To pretend that isn't the case is partly what causes the problems which the French are finding now...
We are talking about a Govt which outlaws things like Mulism dress codes in school. That is perpetual discrimination...
Is it? I don't fast during Ramadan, I don't pray five times per day, I eat pork, I drink and I gamble...
Examples?
Just to undermine your points, can I ask if you will have any Bank Holidays during December...?
Does religion outlaw rioting then?
People are not different, their skin colour is different.
You are not born with culture, culture is created by society.
No its not discrimination because ALL symbols of faith are outlawed. This is a good example of how religion is not being tollerated by society.
Of course I will but times are changing and with more religions wanting their own holidays, it wont surprise me when in the future these religious holidays are done away with. Places have started opening even on Christmas day ie woolworths in Southall in London. Sundays are no longer a sabbath day for many people and businesses all around the country are open on Sundays. Like I said before society does not tollerate religion any more.
I am not a muslim I cant speak for them but I know this type of behaviour is totally condemed in Christianity.
I dont like them, I've never used one.
Do it! :mad:
People are different, and I see you have glossed over the part where I highlighted some differences. Do you want me to repeat those things which I don't do (because they are not part of my culture) but which Muslims do...?
You are born into a culture. What culture is luck of the draw but it affects your upbringing and therefore you future. Pretending that it doesn't exists does not mean that it isn't there.
It is an example of a society, not society in general. And you have to look at who is most affected by this law. Is it the Christian where there are no expoectations about dress code, or the Muslim where there is...?
Thus undermining your point. Society does recognise some religions then?
...evidence?
Where and how? I'd like you to quote passages of the Christian Bible which outlaws rioting...
Love thy neighbour?
Not sure where, but there are instances of rioting/mass public violence in the bible aren't there? (Ephesus rings a bell) Not religious at all, but just seem to remember instances from RE back at school.
Thats the Old Testiment, which is a bit fire and brimstone but Jesus said didnt really apply anymore. So its more an issue for Jews than Christians.
Peoples culture is different not the people get it right.
The idea of the French is to allow those born in France to be born into a French culture. I dont see a problem with that.
It is not obligitory for Muslims to wear their head scarf just as it is not obligitory for Christians to wear a cross. Who is most affected is not the issue, this issue is that this law does not discriminate but bans all religious symbols.
Yes society does recognise religions but it doesnt necessarily tollerate them and certainly the tollerance for religions is decreasing. If my jobs involved me working every Sunday and I didnt want to because of religious beliefs there is nothing I can do about it.
This is becoming more and more tedious. I dont even have a Bible in the house and I am not about to go scouring the internet for some reference just to earn the respect of some message board geek who I dont even know.
Maybe you want to evidence absolutly everything you have written. A full bibliography please.
I think the other person on the board put it quite neatly in a few words "Love thy neighbour" Go and speak to the local minister in your church and he will condem this behaviour. Muslims and other religions have called for their own public holidays in the past and again Im not going to scour the internet to find a website that has a story on the issue. I dont care if I dont have the respect of you people and I dont care if you think I am a violent right wing nazi for my views.
So everyone behaves the same, has the same perspectives? The fact that you and I disagree would suggest otherwise. I have dark hair, Chris Evens' hair is red, I wear glasses my wife doesn't.
Accept it, people are different.
Why shouldn't that "French Culture" include multiple faiths and symbols, multiple races etc?
I didn't say "obligatory", read again...
Evidence?
Except choose to do a different job?
I'm sorry, does backing up your claims bore you?
Erm.. actually it's got nothing to do with respect and everything to do with the rules of these boards. If you cannot evidence a claim then you should say so.
Is this the neighbour I stone because he blasphemes?
Probably.
But then he's likely to condemn homosexuality too...
At least you won't be disappointed then...
The fundamental similarity remains, we are all human and to believe that some difference in our skin colour or where our parents are from should in any way divide us is outrageous.
It does.
I didnt say you did.
Sundays are no longer considered the sabbath for many businesses.
Yes except choose a different job. The point remains though, certain businesses dont tollerate the religious obligations people have.
Yes and it is a waste of time.
There are things you know that you havent got evidence for. I know that in space there is no air. I dont have evidence for it. I could go and waste my time to find this evidence but I cant be bothered. Perhaps the rules should be changed.
New testament vs Old?
And that has what to do with what I said?
We are all human, that is not questioned. However we are all different within that - we are not clones. We all have different likes and dislikes, we all have different expectations, we all have different cultures, we don't look the same and we don't behave the same. We are all different and unique in our own way. It's why we are referred to as individuals.
I didn't say it should divide us. What I said was is that we have many similarities which should unite us, however we should not ignore that fact that we are different and therefore one size does not fit all.
This is where the French let themselves down. There is no such thing as being "French", just as there is no such thing as being "British". Those are only the elements where similarities exist. Over and above that are those things which make us different.
So, whether that is recognition of our various cultures, or abilities and skills or even taking into account our "disabilities", society does need to recognise that differences exist.
You're right, you didn't. But you reply was about obligation which wasn't the point I made. The point I made was the level of expectation on various cultures. Christian doesn't carry much (if any) element of open displys - such as the wearing of crosses - whereas the Islamic, Sikh, Jewish, Buddism (for example) faiths do have that. French law makes such displys unlawful in certain areas. Thus it discriminates.
In the UK we have different laws regarding trading on a Sunday. How can you say that this isn't in recognition of a Sabbath?
Because it's not possible to back up your claims, or because your points aren't actually relevant to the issue?
Perhaps it's there for a reason? Stops people making ourgaeous claims just because it suits their agenda. Immigration policy seems to have alot of problems in that area...
Relevance being?
Aren't both part of the Bible?
You set the relious leader as the guardian of morals which should be followed. The Church's stance on homosexuality puts that into question.
It can make a big difference, as I said above, Jesus in his teaching said that a lot of the set rules laid down in the Old testiment are no longer applicable, it was now far more to do with each persons personal relationship with God.
Cool :cool:
Neighbour's ass, here I come!
I didnt say all of the Old Testiment.
Given I am far from being a Biblical scholar I dont think I'm the best person to ask.
It has to do with the rules like not eating shell fish, which at the time probably would have given you the shits. Those sort of hygiene and such rules are not really applicable anymore, where as the big ideas ones (10 commandments) are.
If that makes sense.