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:banghead:
How does that system work? What are its main features? Is there any way to change it? What would work better?
You haven't pointed it out though.
Come on, you're the wannabe philosopher...surely you can see how fraught with philosophical difficulties this statement is?
your not doing very well as a philosopher ...but theres obviously the right stuff in you to become a politician ...
The main part of "the system" is convincing people that there is one. Imaginary borders being just one of many examples of this. The school systems etc specifically pick out those who are best at hallucinating and discard those who are the worst at it.
Teaching you from birth "this is your country" has different effects from saying "we pretend that there is a border here although there isn't, because it's generally useful". It gets a lot more people killed for a start.
It's no use, imo, to start from the point of view of nations, states etc, because you have already accepted a whole load of stuff by taking on the very idea that will fuck up any solutions you come up with, especially if your point of view is that you are using "nation" or "state" as a fact, not an optional fiction.
"You haven't pointed it out though"
I have pointed it out, at least twice on this thread and on others as well.
*backs away slowly*
No of course not. The thing to do is to ask questions of those who seek to control you using these methods. Rather fortunately, in order to maintain the appearance of fairness and choice, they allow you this chance.
If you stop believing in it, you notice it was never there anyway.
Have you stopped believing in it? Or did you never in the first place?
Shotgun's better
armchair evenings ...sussing and sorting the world ...man.
but doing nowt.
why?
cos it's a reality that will always rule ...it is part of mans mismanagement of man.
man will NEVER ... get any further than mismanagement.
simple as.
What a load of 6th form idealistic nonsense.
What are you basing "What a load of 6th form idealistic nonsense." on Blagsta?
Ever tried it? Or are you still thinking that "the government" are anything more or less than people?
I manage myself pretty damn well thanks, the problems come in when others try to do it for me.
The main part of "the system" is convincing people that there is one. Imaginary borders being just one of many examples of this. The school systems etc specifically pick out those who are best at hallucinating and discard those who are the worst at it.
Teaching you from birth "this is your country" has different effects from saying "we pretend that there is a border here although there isn't, because it's generally useful". It gets a lot more people killed for a start.
It's no use, imo, to start from the point of view of nations, states etc, because you have already accepted a whole load of stuff by taking on the very idea that will fuck up any solutions you come up with, especially if your point of view is that you are using "nation" or "state" as a fact, not an optional fiction.
This was my answer to your question. What are you after?
Give us a clue, please.
Persuasion.
The most persuasive through words, trade or force get the most stuff. The less ability to persuade others you have, the less you get. Interesting that I come up with this one, given how bad I obviously am at persuading you. Everyone is self interested first and foremost. Whether that self interest leads to conclusions like "look after everyones health so I can stay healthy"
or "let em rot" depends on how much the individual knows, their beliefs etc.
Those who can persuade whole swathes of others to believe in things that have no actual connection with the "real world" can persuade them to part with their stuff much easier then would otherwise be the case. It's easy to look at "citizens" of a "country" as belonging to a giant cult, if that's a good analogy.
This is their weakness, for the "power" that the persuasive through words have can only be backed up one of two ways when words fail - trade or force. If the persuasion of a "government" as an example rests on it's "fairness", "freedom" (there is that word again) blah blah blah, it's got to match that rhetoric at least partially when it acts, or the game is up and it's got to go to plan "b" - force. Shame they don't have a plan "c".
the rest is all just so obvious ...
So you basically have a Hobbesian view of human nature. What has made you reach that conclusion?
I am a hypnotist, amongst other things, and I know that you can get people do things against their best judgement, see things that aren't there etc etc if you are persuasive enough. (Not that I ever have got people to go against their judgement, just that I am aware of the principles involved and what you can do with them)
Not too fond of "human nature" though and don't really hold my view as some sort of universal constant, more like a "that's what it looks like from here" with an option to change my mind the second new data comes in.
when i say country ...you will snap out of it.
Yeah Roll, so if it's only sea and land if that's how you perceive it, what makes that country "real"?
Another "none of it is so countries must be" misfire.
they obviosly played a very dirty trick on you klit.
You on the other hand are seeing things that aren't there still, so hows about putting some proof for your delusions up?
That was Klintock`s original post as this thread(interesting as I thought it was) went off somewhere else.
And here`s a little ditty:
Let's say we have 2 people who trade with one another - one of them provides beef, the other grain. When these two people trade, they exchange an item of worth. Perhaps one pound of beef for 2 pounds of grain. But what if the grain famer has enough beef for the moment, yet the other fellow still needs grain right away? To pass this obstacle the two agree that an IOU will be sufficient. That the grain farmer will provide grain in exchange for a note from the rancher stating, "This IOU is good for XXX amount of beef on any date." Ah! Problem solved! But now let's introduce 100 other people into this circle - - all of a sudden no one can keep track of the IOU's from all the different people involved. Some are forged, some are lost - arguments break out all around. Now, let's bring in Mr. Sleaze. Mr. Sleaze shows up one day and claims to have the answer to all of their problems. "A common unit of exchange! One piece of paper will be backed by one pound of beef, thus allowing everyone to gauge the approximate value in relation to what they are trading!" So now the grain famer knows that he should charge one of these notes for every 2 pounds of grain. Still with me? Good - here's where it gets interesting.
After several years pass and the group has become accustomed to the new unit of exchange (we'll call it "The Sucker"), Mr. Sleaze starts to prey on the poor. He offers to loan them some Suckers to buy the things they need with the understanding that they must pay him back or he will take something of value such as their home. Well of course, the poor rarely emerge up from the problems they are mired in, so inevitably Mr. Sleaze finds himself the owner of several new homes. And what price did he pay? The cost of a few pieces of paper that he printed up to supply the loan. He is able to do so because he presumes that no one will actually attempt to redeem these notes for beef from him, they will spend their Suckers elsewhere. The ownership of all of these assets soon places him in a position of authority. With such a profitable business (for this has cost him absolutely nothing...he's doing these people a FAVOUR, remember?) and a rise to power, Mr. Sleaze decides to expand by bringing a few people in on the secret. He sends them out to introduce The Sucker to other communities in need. However, these neophytes are not nearly so good at business as he is, and soon there is a steep drop of confidence in The Sucker. The people flock to Mr. Sleaze and demand to redeem their suckers for beef, since that's what they are backed by after all. Sensing the impending collapse of his scheme, Mr. Sleaze uses his authority to declare beef illegal. He then calms the people by giving out virtually interest-free loans. Since the people now have a long history with this form of currency, they are blinded by their greed - "With this new loan I can buy so much land the naked eye won't be able to see the end of it, and all it will cost me is a bag of grain a month for 5 years!" Of course, Mr. Sleaze will have to create new Suckers out of nothing in order to make these loans. This increases the supply of Suckers which in turn causes the people to get into price wars, "I'll pay you TWICE what he's offering! I really need that grain!", thus causing the number of Suckers required for a given item to increase without the value of the item actually increasing. The Sucker has lost value simply due to the number of them in circulation.
seeker