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Anti-social?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BlackArab wrote:
    Cry for help...
    What help would you offer?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the use of asbos worry me... anything can be 'anti social' - such a discretionary power that removes civil liberties without the need the proof can only be something to be abused by a lazy police force
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ASBOs provide legal consequences for people who breach them, but without a criminal burden of proof. They work in many cases, but to say that they aren't a severe invasuion of civil liberties is wrong. Mind, when we have a Prime Minister who claims that civil liberties arguments are "old fashioned and out of date" then it's hardly a surprise.

    Of course, instead of an ASBO it'd be easier to actually, like, give this woman medical help. But they won't do that: they'll wait for her to breach it, they'll jail her, and then collect her from her cell a week later swinging from the lightfitting.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    ASBOs provide legal consequences for people who breach them, but without a criminal burden of proof. They work in many cases, but to say that they aren't a severe invasuion of civil liberties is wrong. Mind, when we have a Prime Minister who claims that civil liberties arguments are "old fashioned and out of date" then it's hardly a surprise.

    Of course, instead of an ASBO it'd be easier to actually, like, give this woman medical help. But they won't do that: they'll wait for her to breach it, they'll jail her, and then collect her from her cell a week later swinging from the lightfitting.

    thats why i dont like their introduction, simply because local authorities will use them instead of the methods that require evidence and are more idiotproof, makes doing something wrong a discretionary thing instead the easier thing, if they were used properly to disperse actual trouble makers for 6 months or so and then checked again in 6 months to see how they are theyd be okay

    but they are used for anything the local authorities can get away with and i dont see many people appealing cause of cost

    why i dont like discretionary powers with little proof required
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    What help would you offer?

    What ever help she needs.

    Is that too much to ask?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BlackArab wrote:
    What ever help she needs.
    Seriously, what should we do for her?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Seriously, what should we do for her?

    I'd suggest that she needs counselling, and a community support worker who spends time with her, builds a relationship with her, and encourages more positive activities wouldn't go amiss.

    Jailing her if she gets suicidal won't help.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd suggest that she needs counselling, and a community support worker who spends time with her, builds a relationship with her, and encourages more positive activities wouldn't go amiss.
    In an ideal world that's what we'd expect. How about in reality?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    In an ideal world that's what we'd expect. How about in reality?

    We throw her in prison so she attempts suicide by stuffing her mouth full of tissues so she suffocates or she tries to strangle herself by twisting her bed linen around her neck.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    In an ideal world that's what we'd expect. How about in reality?

    Erm, you asked a question - I answered it. Have all the counsellors left the country? All the social services and voluntary agencies shut down?

    In reality both suggestions are possible.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Erm, you asked a question - I answered it. Have all the counsellors left the country? All the social services and voluntary agencies shut down?

    In reality both suggestions are possible.
    We'd like to think so, I agree. There aren't enough counsellors, and counselling isn't efficacious enough to be a panacea to all these anxious/depressive personalities anyway. You can suggest 24/7 social services support, but that's expensive and it isn't going to help in the long term.

    ASBOs aren't the solution, but I don't see a credible alternative.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How exactly is an ASBO going to help?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    How exactly is an ASBO going to help?
    Are you asking me?

    I don't think it will help her at all. It will perhaps solve the problem she creates though.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You just said you don't see any credible alternatives. So you must think its gonna help more than therapy or anti-depressants or being sectioned.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    You just said you don't see any credible alternatives. So you must think its gonna help more than therapy or anti-depressants or being sectioned.
    No, I meant I didn't see ftp's suggestion as a credible alternative. She may well need all of the above. And an ASBO. We don't know any details of the case.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry, explain how an ASBO is going to help again?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How will the ASBO solve the problem?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Sorry, explain how an ASBO is going to help again?
    ftp wrote:
    How will the ASBO solve the problem?
    Presumably she's been making a nuisance of herself in the places she's been banned from (who knows?). The ASBO is presumably designed to prevent her doing so again.

    I don't think an ASBO is a solution for her. But it may be the solution for everyone her behaviour is affecting.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wouldn't a section be more appropriate?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On what grounds?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Wouldn't a section be more appropriate?
    The mental disorder has to be treatable for a detention under the MHA to be valid.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Presumably she's been making a nuisance of herself in the places she's been banned from (who knows?). The ASBO is presumably designed to prevent her doing so again.

    I don't think an ASBO is a solution for her. But it may be the solution for everyone her behaviour is affecting.

    Shes been pulled out of a river three times.

    Maybe, the problem would be solved if they didn't pull her out next time - then she can sink or swim.

    :rolleyes:

    Its about as humane as making her behaviour imprisonable.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    The mental disorder has to be treatable for a detention under the MHA to be valid.

    Yes and suicide attempts are grounds.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On what grounds?

    Danger to herself.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Yes and suicide attempts are grounds.
    Maybe she has been, and she is undergoing treatment. Maybe she's not currently suicidal.

    We don't know any details of the case.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shes been pulled out of a river three times.

    Maybe, the problem would be solved if they didn't pull her out next time - then she can sink or swim.

    :rolleyes:

    Its about as humane as making her behaviour imprisonable.
    What would you do for her? Here and now.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    What would you do for her? Here and now.

    Therapy and possibly anti-depressants.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    What would you do for her? Here and now.

    I've already told you that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Therapy
    :confused:

    Of what form?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've already told you that.
    You're living in dream land if that's your realistic expectation of today's mental health services.
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