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Anti-social?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    :confused:

    Of what form?

    The form that she needs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    The form that she needs.
    We don't even know she's mentally ill.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    You're living in dream land if that's your realistic expectation of today's mental health services.

    So, are you suggesting that its okay to move from mental health to criminalising behaviour that needs support?

    Do you honestly think ASBOs are a suitable response?

    I really *am* trying to understand where you are coming from on this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    We don't even know she's mentally ill.

    Errr...she's attempted suicide lots of times. That would suggest she is suffering from depression.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    We don't even know she's mentally ill.

    Section 2: MHA

    The grounds for the Application, as stated in the Act, are that the person:

    is suffering from mental disorder of a nature or degree which warrants the detention of the patient in a hospital for assessment (or for assessment followed by medical treatment) for at least a limited period; and
    he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or safety or with a view to the protection of other persons.

    http://www.hyperguide.co.uk/mha/s2.htm

    Then she needs to assessed to find out.

    ETA: And it isn't my suggestion she should have 24/7 community support - a relationship of the sort I described can be developed with regular support for a few hours every week.

    (aside)It struck me as really odd that she was still allowed to drive her car, but not to go into multi-level car parks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Suicide did used to be illegal didn't it? Why is it so surprising that attempting suicide would be criminalised?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Suicide did used to be illegal didn't it? Why is it so surprising that attempting suicide would be criminalised?

    Well, then it should be debated in Parliament - and there should be a democratic process.

    The dangers of ASBOs is that they will criminalise behaviour without any kind of democratic scrutiny.

    Do you think a bill to criminalise suicidal behaviour would get through parliament?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It might do. However, the point is that this woman isn't just trying to commit suicide. She's doing it in public places. If I remember correctly, we had a suicide thread on how selfish it was, a major part of that was based on the mess left behind. If she jumped in front of a train, she could kill the driver. I'd want to ban her from any location she could do that, wouldn't you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Its not going to help anything is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Correction, it's not going to help her.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Errr...she's attempted suicide lots of times. That would suggest she is suffering from depression.
    Deliberate self harm and attempted suicide are different things. We don't know she's depressed and we don't know anything about her 'suicide attempts'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Deliberate self harm and attempted suicide are different things. We don't know she's depressed and we don't know anything about her 'suicide attempts'.

    Anyone who deliberatly self harms is not in a good mental state, are they?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Correction, it's not going to help her.

    I'd have thought her life was more important than minor annoyances to the public.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not going to be minor, and you don't know it's actually her life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Then she needs to assessed to find out.
    I know what the MHA says. She may already have been assessed. I don't think an ASBO would have been the first choice in dealing with her, do you?
    ETA: And it isn't my suggestion she should have 24/7 community support - a relationship of the sort I described can be developed with regular support for a few hours every week.
    Again, she may already be seeing a CPN or support worker, but that service is limited by the resources available to it. What are you going to do for the other 167 hours in the week?
    (aside)It struck me as really odd that she was still allowed to drive her car, but not to go into multi-level car parks.
    People with personality disorders can drive you know.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    It's not going to be minor

    Compared to someone's life it is.
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    and you don't know it's actually her life.

    Well who's is it then? The bogeyman's?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You don't know anything about the case, she's making very public attempts to kill herself, it could be that she just wants the attention, rather than any genuine attempt to end it all. She obviously needs help, but as I've said, it's not going to be minor, if she jumps in front of a train, she could kill someone else. Remember that prat who parked on the tracks, he took a half dozen people with him, that's not minor is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    I know what the MHA says. She may already have been assessed. I don't think an ASBO would have been the first choice in dealing with her, do you?

    Again, she may already be seeing a CPN or support worker, but that service is limited by the resources available to it. What are you going to do for the other 167 hours in the week?

    People with personality disorders can drive you know.

    We don't know that she has a personality order. All we know is what is in the article.

    I was hoping you'd respond to this:
    So, are you suggesting that its okay to move from mental health provision to criminalising behaviour that needs support?

    Do you honestly think ASBOs are a suitable response?

    I really *am* trying to understand where you are coming from on this.

    ETA: word provision for clarification
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    You don't know anything about the case, she's making very public attempts to kill herself, it could be that she just wants the attention, rather than any genuine attempt to end it all

    You don't think that someone who goes to those lengths to get attention isn't in serious distress?
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    She obviously needs help, but as I've said, it's not going to be minor, if she jumps in front of a train, she could kill someone else.

    Very unlikely isn't it?
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Remember that prat who parked on the tracks, he took a half dozen people with him, that's not minor is it?

    No, but I wouldn't call him a prat either. People don't do that sort of thing unless they are in serious mental distress.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm off in a bit, I want to make myself as clear as before then.

    It's about punishment, essentially.

    So, take a different story with an apparently disproportionate and unsuitable punishment. Remember that girl who was kidnapped, jumped from the car, was hit by a cab and died? The cabbie failed to stop, and got 200hrs (or something) community service. I remember kermit being fairly rabid about it. However, you had to look for what he was actually being punished for. His punishment was for not stopping, seeing as there was (in all likelyhood) no way he could have missed her, so the collision wasn't his fault, and no way for anyone else to know if she would have lived had he stopped, so he's not even being held responsible for her death, simply failing to stop and report an accident. That's all.

    Here, she's not being punished for being depressed or attention seeking, the ASBO is designed to protect the rest of the public. We don't know what help she's getting, or if she's refused it. What is important, no matter how you want to equate trauma and injury to others and her own possible death, is that society has a responsiblity not just to help her, but to protect the majority as well. She's being banned from certain locations, not from any social intervention.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What utter utter nonsense. You're basically saying that she should be punished because she is in mental distress. How Christian of you. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I said nothing like that at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We don't know that she has a personality order. All we know is what is in the article.
    This is my point really. That we can't criticise the use of an ASBO in her case because we don't know if she's mentally ill and we don't know what kind of help she is being/has been given/offered.
    So, are you suggesting that its okay to move from mental health provision to criminalising behaviour that needs support?
    Absolutely not. Mental health provision in the NHS is shockingly awful and inadequate for the needs of our population. Services that are offered are under-resourced and often ineffective. Criminalising behaviour due to mental illness is not the answer, but in her case that may be the only solution to her behavioural patterns. I really don't think she would be prosecuted for disobeying the ASBO, but it would at least give some grounds for a detention under the MHA (section 2 or indeed 136).
    Do you honestly think ASBOs are a suitable response?
    ASBO singular: possibly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85

    Errr...yes you have. It may not be what you meant, but its what you wrote. Look - "It's about punishment, essentially.". See?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You are a royal idiot.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good comeback.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You clearly haven't read my post, how are you worth a comeback?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Errr...yes you have. It may not be what you meant, but its what you wrote. Look - "It's about punishment, essentially.". See?
    What is this "mental distress" and what can be done about it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    This is my point really. That we can't criticise the use of an ASBO in her case because we don't know if she's mentally ill and we don't know what kind of help she is being/has been given/offered.

    I'd say its a fair bet that she is in some form of mental distress. People don't usually attempt suicide when they feel OK.
    Kentish wrote:
    Absolutely not. Mental health provision in the NHS is shockingly awful and inadequate for the needs of our population.

    Agreed.
    Kentish wrote:
    Services that are offered are under-resourced and often ineffective. Criminalising behaviour due to mental illness is not the answer, but in her case that may be the only solution to her behavioural patterns. I really don't think she would be prosecuted for disobeying the ASBO, but it would at least give some grounds for a detention under the MHA (section 2 or indeed 136).

    Self harm is already grounds.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    What is this "mental distress" and what can be done about it?

    You want to be a doctor and you don't know what mental distress means? :eek:
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