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Anti-social?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think he wants to know what you mean by it.

    Are people only allowed to be forcibly held under MHA if they are a danger to others not just themselves?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I'd say its a fair bet that she is in some form of mental distress. People don't usually attempt suicide when they feel OK.
    Again, the difference between deliberate self harm and attempted suicide.
    Self harm is already grounds.
    Only after the fact. The ASBO is about prevention.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    You want to be a doctor and you don't know what mental distress means? :eek:
    I'm asking you to clarify what you mean. There's no need to be defensive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    I think he wants to know what you mean by it.

    People who are happy and contented don't attempt suicide do they?
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Are people only allowed to be forcibly held under MHA if they are a danger to others not just themselves?

    People can be held if they are a danger to themselves or others.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    . She's being banned from certain locations, not from any social intervention.

    Nobody said she was banned from social intervention. Kentish did suggest that it was unrealistic to expect she would get any though.

    Her case seems to be a CRASBO, (Criminal Anti- Social Behaviour Order) rather than an ASBO - so at least the normal burden of proof was required, although her convicions were under the Public Order Act, which is basically "harrassment, alarm and distress", which are hard to get legal aid for, and hard to convict on if there is a competent lawyer involved.

    I personally find it difficult to believe that her behaviour is more distressing to others than to herself, and I can't see how the (CR)ASBO sorts anything out - because a distressed person isn't always going to do rational things.

    When our prisons are already overflowing with damaged human beings, we have to be wary of new ways of cramming them either more.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Are people only allowed to be forcibly held under MHA if they are a danger to others not just themselves?
    Either/or.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, if she breaks the ASBO, that's probably grounds that she's a danger to themselves or others, ie irrefutably so.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Again, the difference between deliberate self harm and attempted suicide.

    People don't deliberately self harm unless they are in some mental distress do they?
    Kentish wrote:
    Only after the fact. The ASBO is about prevention.

    But she has already attempted to harm herself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish did suggest that it was unrealistic to expect she would get any though.
    That's nothing like what I said.

    (Emphasis mine)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Are people only allowed to be forcibly held under MHA if they are a danger to others not just themselves?

    From the act (quoted above)

    "he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or safety or with a view to the protection of other persons."
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    That's nothing like what I said.

    (Emphasis mine)

    My bad - lazy shorthand - should have said that Kentish did suggest it was unrealistic she would get the kind of help I proposed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    People don't deliberately self harm unless they are in some mental distress do they?
    What exactly do you mean by "mental distress"? I ask because, to me, that term implies an acute episode of psychosis causing irrational behaviour.
    But she has already attempted to harm herself.
    But she's only detainable if she is currently at risk of self harm. The ASBO would allow police intervention before she attempted anything else.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My bad - lazy shorthand - should have said that Kentish did suggest it was unrealistic she would get the kind of help I proposed.
    And I stand by that. (If she indeed has a personality disorder and the help you propose is counselling (immediately available) and a community support worker who will visit her regularly).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    But she's only detainable if she is currently at risk of self harm. The ASBO would allow police intervention before she attempted anything else.

    The police are unlikely to intervene before she poses a risk to herself - how would they know she was near a river/carpark/trainline?

    So most probably their intervention would come at the stage when a section would be appropriate.

    And, given the history, it (a MH intervention) could be apllicable when she goes near a river/carpark/trainline.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish,

    Not sure if you understood what I am saying here. I am saying that she needs help and should get it. I am genuinely at a loss to see what could be debateable about that.

    I am not saying I have the exact answers because I don't, I am not a mental health professional but I am someone who has had to deal with a friend who was suffering from mental health issues. We got him the help he needed.

    Another person i was working with recently had some sort of a breakdown and was picked up wandering by the police, taken to a psychiactric unit, sectioned, assessed and treated, first as an in-patient, now as an out-patient.

    This is what I am suggesting. Believe me mate if someone is depressed enough to think about, let alone attempt suicide, they are not going to stop to think rationally about the consequences of breaking their asbo.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And, given the history, it (a MH intervention) could be apllicable when she goes near a river/carpark/trainline.
    Hardly. The ASBO just formalises your thought process, but you can't be suggesting that people with a history of mental illness should be sectioned if they go near a river/carpark/trainline, surely?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BlackArab wrote:
    This is what I am suggesting. Believe me mate if someone is depressed enough to think about, let alone attempt suicide, they are not going to stop to think rationally about the consequences of breaking their asbo.
    It's debatable because we don't even know she has a mental illness. People with so-called personality disorders can exhibit bizarre behaviours and have rational thought processes, and thus may not detainable under the MHA.

    Of course she should be offered help, I don't recall denying that. But the ASBO isn't used as a first line treatment for people in her position - I am making the assumption that a lot has been tried with her already.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    Hardly. The ASBO just formalises your thought process, but you can't be suggesting that people with a history of mental illness should be sectioned if they go near a river/carpark/trainline, surely?

    If they are at risk to themselves, as evidenced by previous history, then I would a think an assessment could be made. It won't. Just as she wouldn't be arrested before an incident.

    I've made my substantive point about creeping imprisonment for non-illegal behaviour.

    I'm done with this thread.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've made my substantive point about creeping imprisonment for non-illegal behaviour.
    I agree with you. I'm just saying that there's always more than meets the eye with these stories.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish wrote:
    It's debatable because we don't even know she has a mental illness.

    In prisons when someone who is/or who could commit suicide arent they put on 24 hr watch or similar ?
    Obviously if someone is prepared to take their own life they must have some kind of mental problem, so treat that problem in which ever way they can.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BeckyBoo wrote:
    In prisons when someone who is/or who could commit suicide arent they put on 24 hr watch or similar ?
    Obviously if someone is prepared to take their own life they must have some kind of mental problem, so treat that problem in which ever way they can.
    so chuck her in prison for being ill?
    one of the best places going for topping yourself?
    as has been proved time and time again?
    there are never enough staff to do a 24hr watch on thousands upon thousands of prisoners.
    and growing daily by the sounds of things.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so chuck her in prison for being ill?
    one of the best places going for topping yourself?
    as has been proved time and time again?
    there are never enough staff to do a 24hr watch on thousands upon thousands of prisoners.
    and growing daily by the sounds of things.

    Sorry, no thats not what I meant. What I was saying is that people who are in prison who could harm/kill themselves are put on watch......meaning that there is something wrong with them. So this woman should have help to stop her not just move the problem.
    Kentish is saying we dont know if she has a mental illness, im saying totally the opposite because anyone who tries to take their own life on more than one occasion has mental health issues of some kind......surely :confused:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you know what methods people in prison use to attempt suicide?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BeckyBoo wrote:
    Sorry, no thats not what I meant. What I was saying is that people who are in prison who could harm/kill themselves are put on watch......meaning that there is something wrong with them. So this woman should have help to stop her not just move the problem.
    Kentish is saying we dont know if she has a mental illness, im saying totally the opposite because anyone who tries to take their own life on more than one occasion has mental health issues of some kind......surely :confused:

    Kentish is suggesting that she has a "personality disorder" and that it is untreatable.

    But we don't know that - and imho the term is used to get difficult non-psychotic patients off a psychiatrists caseload.

    There has to be a reason for someone to behave in this way - and there must be a more humane way to respond to it, than criminalisation.

    But methinks that the CRASBO may have been an easy way for magistrates to dispose of a difficult and disturbing case that made them uneasy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Do you know what methods people in prison use to attempt suicide?

    nah......should I ?

    I dont think she should be sent to prison you know. Where I was coming from is that prisons get a doctors view as to wether the person is suicidal so if a doctor thinks they are then surely they have some kind of mental unstability ?
    sheesh, why did I bring prison into the equasion..but it was late-ish last night wasnt it :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But methinks that the CRASBO may have been an easy way for magistrates to dispose of a difficult and disturbing case that made them uneasy.

    I agree :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kentish is suggesting that she has a "personality disorder" and that it is untreatable.

    But we don't know that
    That's not what I said. I just questioned your kneejerk condemnation of the ASBO when we don't know if she's mentally ill (and whether that mental illness is treatable). All I know is that people with personality disorders deliberately self harm without being specifically suicidal, and are not sectionable for past behaviours.
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