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Shopping ethically

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hmmmmmm

    I can't see how it is 'ethical' to support local business per se.

    I see the the point about pollution, but how many people drive to the supermarket to buy the stuff? Why also would this apply to food only, what about everything else you buy?

    The problem is that this attitude rules out buting from developing world farmers who need the money far more than any British farmer does.....

    It also rules out the fairtrade stuff, this stuff is from other countries, hence more pollution, you can't have it both ways really........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In any case the much if not most of the produce that reaches us from the developing world is not grown locally is there? Coffee, bananas, cocoa and so on.

    I'm always willing to buy fair trade produce when I see it, but you seldom see stawberries from, say Sudan in a supermarket.

    So if the choice is between Spanish and British strawberries British people might consider it perhaps not more ethical, but better for the local economy and the environment to buy the British ones.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But if you believe in the pollution reasoning for local farm produce enough to deny people inpverty an incoem then really you shouldn't be buying coffee etc anyway.......

    yes people might consider it to be better to 'buy local' but it isn't really justified, the only reason people do it with food is because it is cheap enough for each individual item to not make a difference.

    How many people take into account localness when buying a car? British people don't buy many Rovers do they?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    In any case the much if not most of the produce that reaches us from the developing world is not grown locally is there? Coffee, bananas, cocoa and so on.

    I'm always willing to buy fair trade produce when I see it, but you seldom see stawberries from, say Sudan in a supermarket.

    So if the choice is between Spanish and British strawberries British people might consider it perhaps not more ethical, but better for the local economy and the environment to buy the British ones.
    exactly. You cant buy locally grown bananas or locally grown coffee, so I buy fairtrade.
    If it was a choice between British Apples or New Zealand apples,or Id buy British, or the nearest country. You cant compare the pollution of someone driving to a supermarket, to the pollution caused by aviation fuel, but even if you could, just because you drive, wouldnt mean its not worth buying local produce to cut down pollution elsewhere.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But if you are so concerned about pollution, you don't have to have coffe, or bananas or any of this stuff. And if you believe in local produce for the sake of local produce then you could base your diet around British agriculture. more income for our farmers..........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    true bout last point but it isnt the same as buying a car, because the way food is subsidised, and its subsidised so farmers sell their food to supermarkets for less than it costs to produce in this country, whilst most farmers would want to actually run their farm as a real business...


    basically it all to do with the stupid system of CAP and how we produce food, if we produce and buy food locally for a decent price (ie not paying the middle man all the profits - supermarkets) whilst the farmer being subsidised

    i not in mood to explain but hopeflly you get the point
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    But if you are so concerned about pollution, you don't have to have coffe, or bananas or any of this stuff. And if you believe in local produce for the sake of local produce then you could base your diet around British agriculture. more income for our farmers..........
    Thats very true. If i was truly 100% eco friendly, then I would do that, but instead, I just make a few changes here and there, try and make sure, I buy as much locally as possible, and the few things I cant, are fairly traded. There is still pollution involved, but Its more of a case of damage limitation, rather than me trying to be whiter than white.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well the CAP is very helpful to many farmers, allows them to escape compatition to a large extent.

    The most often cited factor that harms our farmers is supermarkets.

    if you wanted to help Brit farmers you would probably be best not shopping at supermarkets, how many going to do that though?

    people have already cmentioned Iceland and Waitrose..........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    Thats very true. If i was truly 100% eco friendly, then I would do that, but instead, I just make a few changes here and there, try and make sure, I buy as much locally as possible, and the few things I cant, are fairly traded. There is still pollution involved, but Its more of a case of damage limitation, rather than me trying to be whiter than white.

    its only natural I suppose, i don't want to have a go.

    Just seems that some people are a bit wishy-washy about this if you see what i mean.........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I try to buy stuff that has been made/produced in Great Britain, but with clothes and electronics its hard to find the locally made stuff.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why try to buy British?

    Do you think British stuff is better, or cheaper?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    I can't see how it is 'ethical' to support local business per se.

    It also rules out the fairtrade stuff, this stuff is from other countries, hence more pollution, you can't have it both ways really........
    Fairtrade stuff tends to be thngs like coffee, tea and fruit that tend to be made in foreign parts anyway.

    I support local businesses because I want to support the local workforce. Simple as that. I have a Manufacturing Engineering degree, but I can't get a job in manufacturing because everyone is moving production overseas. if we all refused to buy foreign-made products, then it would help our own industry, and thus provide jobs for people like me. :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I don't want to deny you a job Slog :) but.......

    Mfg is leving britian for good reason, attitudes for 'buying local' help perpetuate economic inefficiency and hurt developing nations, people in those countries deserve jobs as well.........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    Well I don't want to deny you a job Slog :) but.......

    Mfg is leving britian for good reason, attitudes for 'buying local' help perpetuate economic inefficiency and hurt developing nations, people in those countries deserve jobs as well.........
    theyre leaving this country for bad reasons though. Its easier to exploit workers in developing countries.
    Is it right to buy stuff knowingly made by child labour in sweatshops, because in one way its supporting workers in other countries, but on the other hand its supporting abuse and exploitation of vunerable people.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well they are doing it becasue they can produce cheaper and people want cheap stuff, can't deny it and nothing that wrong with it.

    I agree that they can be exploitative and that there should be actions taken to prevent this.

    But as you allude, better to have children starving, etc than working if there are no other options?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    Well they are doing it becasue they can produce cheaper and people want cheap stuff, can't deny it and nothing that wrong with it.

    well there IS something wrong with it. Food isnt supposed to be that cheap, and when you are paying rock bottom prices for something, its because someone somewhere else is paying the price. You want cheap pork, well thats fair enough, but farmers cant afford it, and are farms are closing down left right and centre, pigs are getting more and more mistreated in their factory farms, but thats OK because people can get their economy pork chops at Asda :(
    You want cheap coffee? well fair enough, but unless you buy fairtrade, the coffee growers arent even getting paid enough to eat properly let alone school their children, but Nescafe, and maxwell house (sara lee) keep pushing the prices down and down, paying less and less of a fair price. These workers cant even sustain themselves but they have no choice but to keep going or theyd have nothing.
    Its NOT alright to keep trying to pay lower and lower prices for quality produce, by doing so, other people are being made poorer and poorer, not just in developing countries, but in this country too.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But some poor people would be in a lot of trouble if food prices were doubled..........

    I do agree that there are bad things but there are also negative consequences of this ethical thinking so it isn' completely clear cut........
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    But some poor people would be in a lot of trouble if food prices were doubled..........

    I do agree that there are bad things but there are also negative consequences of this ethical thinking so it isn' completely clear cut........

    no its the hugh markups that companies make, we should pay a more reasonable price for what we buy with more going to farmers, not too much but what they deserve
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I try to avoid products tested on animals (eg, Smilthkline Beecham) and Nestlé and I don't eat at KFC because of their animal rights records. There's lots I avoid and I often try to get organic food, eat as little meat as possible and try to go environmentally friendly. :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    But some poor people would be in a lot of trouble if food prices were doubled..........

    I do agree that there are bad things but there are also negative consequences of this ethical thinking so it isn' completely clear cut........
    Well its the first time in history that people have spent such a small proportion of their income on food. People spend too much on junk processed food, and a lot of people dont even know how to cook from fresh anymore. Even on a very low income or benefits, it should still be possible to buy ethically produced/traded food, not neccesarilly everything, but the main stuff.
    My fairly traded coffee costs £1.49 a jar from the co-op. Thats much cheaper than nescafe. Free range eggs are about 20p more than battery eggs. Organic milk in tescos costs roughly 20p more for 4 pints, than the non organic milk. Local fruit and veg can be bought mega cheaply from your local greengrocers, or you can get organic box schemes all over the country providing all the fruit and veg you need for about £7 a week.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by wheresmyplacebo
    no its the hugh markups that companies make, we should pay a more reasonable price for what we buy with more going to farmers, not too much but what they deserve
    eeeZATLY
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LadyJade
    I disagree, I believe if enough people send their custom to the right places then the market will change.

    It makes a slight difference, but there will be no major change without a total restructuring of world economics.
    Consumer power is a bit of a con really. Pretending to make things better while doing fuck all.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    It makes a slight difference, but there will be no major change without a total restructuring of world economics.
    Consumer power is a bit of a con really. Pretending to make things better while doing fuck all.
    thats not true, It DOES make a difference. It wasnt that long ago you couldnt buy things like veggie burgers, let alone the huge range of vegetarian substitutes we have now. There was a demand for it, and now theres a huge range everywhere you go.
    Consumers want fairly traded stuff and organic foods - a few years ago youd be lucky to get it in a hippy health food store, but now its even in your local corner shop not to mention supermarkets.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But the underlying economic system stays the same.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    But the underlying economic system stays the same.
    im not sure what you mean or what youre getting at. Im not asking for the revolution.
    People can and do affect what is sold and is available to buy. We affect trends, and big companies arent going to sell stuff that nobody wants to buy. Sales of Lard and dripping are at an all time low, even mcdonalds have had to bring in healthy options to their mcmenu, and you think consumer influence is minimal?

    can you please explain what you mean, maybe im being thick here?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really can't be arsed to get into a discussion about economics at the moment. Suffice to say that at the moment, global capitalism is based on greed and exploitation, and no amount of "ethical shopping" is going to change that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    I really can't be arsed to get into a discussion about economics at the moment. Suffice to say that at the moment, global capitalism is based on greed and exploitation, and no amount of "ethical shopping" is going to change that.
    ok, sorry for asking :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    nothings going to change overnight, but its sad to say oh well, this is what its like, you may as well go along with it. Things are changing all the time
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, and I do shop ethically if I can. But don't kid yourself that its actually making a huge difference. I guess my problem with it, is that it is often seen as enough and discourages people from getting involved more politically.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    At my university (UCL) they won't stock any products made by Nestle in the union shops.

    And I buy FairTrade coffee. But that's about it.

    (And I don't buy meat etc cos I'm a vegatarian but ethics don't really influence that decision)
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