Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Options

This whole libertarian thing...

245

Comments

  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    Do libertarians actually believe in a govt to make the laws you talk about?

    Yes, most do. Anarcho-capitalists don't.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
    Right, are you discriminative? Do you like anyone who isn't a WASP? Do you think that people should allow to be discriminative regardless of how it affects the positive rights of others? So long as person or property are not affected then this is ok? Why is socialism a bad thing? Going by your view, then unless you were the most widely accepted colour/ethnicity etc, you would be an outcast. Would this work int he oppoisite direction? Would you be happy if all bank managers had to be black to work in a black neighbour, or had to be austrialian to work in an Aussie theme bar? Extreme example they may be, but realistics one as well I think.

    I'm not a racist.

    And what positive rights are you referring to?
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When you get down to liber, would you rather live in a country like Apartheid South Africa or one like Britain todey?

    If the answer is the latter then what really would be so bad about doing something to change it rather than sitting back and excepting bad things like your philosphy seems to suggest..........
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber
    I'm not a racist.

    And what positive rights are you referring to?
    Well, positive rights like right to clothing, education, housing, health care. You think these shouldn't be 'rights' per se. But negative rights like the right not to be assaulted, robbed, abused or censored should be enforceable. So, where do you draw the line in libertarian terms? Take the rascist thing we were talking about. There is the negative right not to be abused (verbally, physically or through discriminative acts), so negative rights are upheld. But people should be allowed to discriminate if they want to? A condradiction in terms or what?
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
    Well, positive rights like right to clothing, education, housing, health care.


    These 'rights' are dependent on others providing them.
    You think these shouldn't be 'rights' per se. But negative rights like the right not to be assaulted, robbed, abused or censored should be enforceable. So, where do you draw the line in libertarian terms? Take the rascist thing we were talking about. There is the negative right not to be abused (verbally, physically or through discriminative acts), so negative rights are upheld. But people should be allowed to discriminate if they want to? A condradiction in terms or what? [/B]

    In 'libertarian terms' you have the right to do what you want provided it doesn't violate others' rights to person and property.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber


    These 'rights' are dependent on others providing them.

    [/B]

    As is property.

    you only gain property in exchange for money, all you actually own is your Labour.

    Thus restricting someones ability to get a job could be interpreted as denying them the right to property.........
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by the sole liber


    These 'rights' are dependent on others providing them.

    [/B]
    Taxation provides this... Unless you have an amazing image of a totally egaitarian society where everyone loves everyone else.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Egalitarian? I believe in equal rights and equality in the eyes of the law.

    But rights only exist in a social context. Technically whatever you own is property and you don't necessarily need someone else to acquire it.

    But education and health care do. If you want somebody to teach you how to speak French then you might need someone to teach you. Same if you had an inflamed appendix; a person themselves may not have the knowledge to do anything about it!

    So a right to property doesn't have to rely on others. Rights to education and healthcare do.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And? :confused: We all rely on others. No man is an island and all that.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The fact that libertarian ideas look weird for the most modern Westerners doesn’t prove they ARE weird. Libertarianism is a mainstream of human social thought while socialism is an ugly perversion, an ill branch of it, a kind of brain cancer that blinds your eyes and deafens your ears. It is really horrible when people repeat socialist slogans not understanding the abyss of immorality where they are led by it.
    Look at your distorted language! The shameless robbery committing by the machine of violence named State with its all wonderful tools like the police, military, prisons is ’compassion’. Permissions given by the bunch of gangsters named government are ’freedoms’ and desire to get more, more and more at expense of one’s fellow man, his hard work, sweat and blood is ’positive rights’ or even ’human rights’!
    Well… I am not in mood to discuss all philosophical, social, historical, economical etc. aspects of anarcho capitalism now. But I’d like to offer you three short articles written by three very different men. It’s not about some great matters but rather a kind of everyday-life anarchism.
    Not wanting you jump from a site to a site I put it here
    http://pages.quicksilver.net.nz/lajrlin/L/IgnoreThem.html
    Enjoy!
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    The fact that libertarian ideas look weird for the most modern Westerners doesn’t prove they ARE weird. Libertarianism is a mainstream of human social thought while socialism is an ugly perversion, an ill branch of it, a kind of brain cancer that blinds your eyes and deafens your ears. It is really horrible when people repeat socialist slogans not understanding the abyss of immorality where they are led by it.

    Please back these claims up.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Lab Rab... just to keep it short and sweet: the expression "anarcho capitalism" is an oxymoron. You are staining the concept of anarchism by the inclusion of capitalism into it and the whole concept of the dehumanised, free market fundamentalist monstruocity you believe in.

    Libertarianism is an abomination of human nature. Please spare us all the accusations of 'immorality' and 'perversions' when talking about socialism because the system you believe in is the ugliest of them all- it even makes fascism look attractive.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Blagsta
    And? :confused: We all rely on others. No man is an island and all that.

    Maybe so, but you can't force others to provide things for you.

    There is no special right to anything.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, you can't force people. But most people are glad to, because they sometimes need help too. What goes around comes around, as they say.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Lab Rab... just to keep it short and sweet: the expression "anarcho capitalism" is an oxymoron. You are staining the concept of anarchism by the inclusion of capitalism into it and the whole concept of the dehumanised, free market fundamentalist monstruocity you believe in.

    Libertarianism is an abomination of human nature. Please spare us all the accusations of 'immorality' and 'perversions' when talking about socialism because the system you believe in is the ugliest of them all- it even makes fascism look attractive.
    Your post proves one thing only- you didn’t read the articles I put above.
    Are these guys anarchists? They are, you can’t deny this.
    Are they libertarians? They are and you can’t blame them in the opposite.
    Are they popular humorists inventing oxymoron at every step to please the public? No, they aren’t. They are not playing verbal games you socialists love to play, they just try to live their lives in dignity and honesty.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think (if I remember rightly) that there is this theory of classical liberatarianism, which is that everyone has the right to act exactly has he chooses... provided that his actions do not harm anyone else. So for, example, you may hate your openly gay neighbour, and despise everything that he stands for... but as long as you to not harm him, or his possessions, or his reputation, then that's fine. Your hatred for him, and his lifestyle, may *offend* him, but it doesn't *harm* him. One shouldn't be conditioned by sociailtal norms, because those norms may be wrong and are changable... Kind of a statment of individual freedom n a right to determine the course of your own life, unhindered by socialital norms because those norms are ultimately changable. The idea kinda got corrupted by capitalism...
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by The First Lady
    I think (if I remember rightly) that there is this theory of classical liberatarianism, which is that everyone has the right to act exactly has he chooses... provided that his actions do not harm anyone else. So for, example, you may hate your openly gay neighbour, and despise everything that he stands for... but as long as you to not harm him, or his possessions, or his reputation, then that's fine. Your hatred for him, and his lifestyle, may *offend* him, but it doesn't *harm* him. One shouldn't be conditioned by sociailtal norms, because those norms may be wrong and are changable... Kind of a statment of individual freedom n a right to determine the course of your own life, unhindered by socialital norms because those norms are ultimately changable. The idea kinda got corrupted by capitalism...
    You are right.
    The only mistake is ‘corrupted by capitalism’. No, it is corrupted by socialism. Capitalism is exactly the same rule, just applied to economical part of life. If it is true that one has no right to control other people’s sexual behaviour ( who, why, with whom and on which conditions may or may not sleep) it is also true that one has no right to control their economical behaviour ( what, why, to whom, from whom and for which price they may or may not buy and sell).
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    Your post proves one thing only- you didn’t read the articles I put above.
    Are these guys anarchists? They are, you can’t deny this.
    Are they libertarians? They are and you can’t blame them in the opposite.
    Are they popular humorists inventing oxymoron at every step to please the public? No, they aren’t. They are not playing verbal games you socialists love to play, they just try to live their lives in dignity and honesty.

    Anarcho-capitalists are not anarchists. To say they are, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of anarchist theory.
    http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secF1.html
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, it’s your misunderstanding ( not fundamental one though… just a delusion).
    Smelly socks ( from ‘an-soc’, anarcho-socialism) believe in two things;
    1. State is Evil.
    2. Property is Theft.
    Proud caps (from ‘an-cap’, anarcho-capitalism) believe in the first but not in the second.
    These two assumptions just logically contradict each other, the thing ansocs never understand (because of their poor education)
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not that I agree with either statement, but if I had to choose between 'property is theft' and 'taxation is theft' I'd much rather choose the former.

    As, I suspect, would practically everyone else.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin
    As, I suspect, would practically everyone else.

    no not really, not really at all

    quite the opposite as you know full well
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In your parallel universe, perhaps...
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    In your parallel universe, perhaps...
    Ha-ha.
    So you try to say your fridge is theft but my attempt to feed myself from it without your permission is not!
    I’d like to live in your parallel universe filled with fools…
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by The First Lady
    I think (if I remember rightly) that there is this theory of classical liberatarianism, which is that everyone has the right to act exactly has he chooses... provided that his actions do not harm anyone else. So for, example, you may hate your openly gay neighbour, and despise everything that he stands for... but as long as you to not harm him, or his possessions, or his reputation, then that's fine. Your hatred for him, and his lifestyle, may *offend* him, but it doesn't *harm* him. One shouldn't be conditioned by sociailtal norms, because those norms may be wrong and are changable... Kind of a statment of individual freedom n a right to determine the course of your own life, unhindered by socialital norms because those norms are ultimately changable. The idea kinda got corrupted by capitalism...
    #
    Offence IS harm DIPSHIT!!! :lol:

    Harm is SO subjective, try a less ambigious limit.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    Ha-ha.
    So you try to say your fridge is theft but my attempt to feed myself from it without your permission is not!
    I’d like to live in your parallel universe filled with fools…
    Not nearly as foolish as dreaming in this absurd libertarian daydream where things take care of themselves.

    Are you a millionaire LabRat? Because if you aren't, you'd be a victim of your own dream. Only the very rich could afford to live in your utopian world. The others can kiss health, education, public transport, law and order, safety, security and countless other things goodbye.

    But never mind... I'm sure having to walk to work and not being able to visit a doctor (let alone have life-saving surgery) are small prices to pay for the Grand Libertarian Dream.

    Dear oh dear...
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    No, it’s your misunderstanding ( not fundamental one though… just a delusion).
    Smelly socks ( from ‘an-soc’, anarcho-socialism) believe in two things;
    1. State is Evil.
    2. Property is Theft.
    Proud caps (from ‘an-cap’, anarcho-capitalism) believe in the first but not in the second.
    These two assumptions just logically contradict each other, the thing ansocs never understand (because of their poor education)

    Don't be ridiculous. Its you that has misappropriated the term.
    Read some history.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by LabRat
    Ha-ha.
    So you try to say your fridge is theft but my attempt to feed myself from it without your permission is not!
    I’d like to live in your parallel universe filled with fools…

    This makes no sense whatsoever. :confused:
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Poor me… I can’t survive not being robbed.
    So if the great wise benevolent government feeds herds of edu-bureaucrats at my expense I will be educated.
    But if I pay directly to a teacher missing their offices I never will.
    Do you really understand what you are talking about?
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry, that still makes no sense. :confused: You seem deluded and incoherent. Are you running a temparature?
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Heh, I just realised, what parts of libertarian belief does glasgow reckon are 'crazy'?

    He hasn't stated what as yet.:cool:
Sign In or Register to comment.