This whole libertarian thing...

Former Member

Right. I keep on going on this forum and reading (what I consider to be) crazy comments by sole liber and labrat. I am extremely interested in the whole mentality of libertarianism, the justification, the benefits, the drawbacks, a fair and balanced view on it. I really don't want this to degenerate into a slanging match, so it would be great if posters don't start making attacks and stuff on each other, and if it does I'll delete it cause I can't be bothered reading insults for pages. I just want to know what it is and why sole liber and labrat subscribe to it, and if it really is as great a political view as they seem to say.

Former Member

I think the socialist views of people here are 'crazy'. But I don't make a big deal of it.:rolleyes:

Former Member

Right wing libertarianism is basically free market economics and social Darwinism. The market is the solution for everything, greed is good, only the strong deserve to survive etc.
Not very nice.

Former Member

Originally posted by the sole liber
I think the socialist views of people here are 'crazy'. But I don't make a big deal of it.:rolleyes:

Yes, but most peoplek know what Socialism is. Libertarianism is something different and people are interested as to how it works, the values etc.

There must more to it that "why can't I?"

Former Member

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

I love wikepedia.

Former Member

Originally posted by the sole liber
I think the socialist views of people here are 'crazy'. But I don't make a big deal of it.:rolleyes:

I'm not making a big deal of it, I just wanna know why you hold the views you do. They are not very commonly held, especially the whole free market thing. And why do you find the socialist view 'crazy'?

Former Member

Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
And why do you find the socialist view 'crazy'?

Why can't he?

Former Member

Um, I'm not saying he can't... I'm asking why.

Former Member

Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
Um, I'm not saying he can't... I'm asking why.

Sorry, I was trying to be funny, what with that being a common re-occurance in libertarian policy.

Former Member

Right, sorry. Sarcasm doesn't transmit well over the net...

Former Member

Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
I'm not making a big deal of it, I just wanna know why you hold the views you do. They are not very commonly held, especially the whole free market thing. And why do you find the socialist view 'crazy'?

http://www.libertarian.org/index2.html

Read the above link for information on libertarianism.

And free market views ARE commonly held. All major parties in Britain in principle accept more free-market economics!

Former Member

You aren't supposed to display aggression. Are aggressive views allowed?

Former Member

No that means aggression against person. Not being angry at others!:rolleyes:

Former Member

I'm not just talking about free-market economics, but the whole 'rights to personand property' belief. That negative rights are protected but positive rights aren't.

Former Member

Originally posted by the sole liber
http://www.libertarian.org/index2.html

Read the above link for information on libertarianism.

And free market views ARE commonly held. All major parties in Britain in principle accept more free-market economics!

See, my main problem with Libetarianism is the same problem I have with all political theory - it's too simplistic, based on ideal conditions, assumes that people are homogenous and think the same.
As I said in another thread - I'm broadly libetarian socialist, but I still have problems with it. I'm too cynical to think that any political theory is workable in practice.

And the free market we supposedly have now, is anything but. "Free" markets tend to favour existing power and privilege, by their very nature.

Former Member

Originally posted by the sole liber
No that means aggression against person. Not being angry at others!:rolleyes:

That wasn't what I was saying. If someone in your perfect anarchist society said "right, we should go out and kill gay people because I really hate them", would that be acceptable. They are advocating aggression, surely?

Former Member

I think that libertarianism would let you rage, victimise, or cut out of society gays.jews whatever, but not actually allow physical harm to them. So you could say you hate all gays, but not actually go out and beat them up.

Former Member

Originally posted by the doc horatio
That wasn't what I was saying. If someone in your perfect anarchist society said "right, we should go out and kill gay people because I really hate them", would that be acceptable. They are advocating aggression, surely?

If you want to hate gays then fine. It's when you commit acts against their person or property that you cross the line.

Former Member

So discrimination in this case would be ok? SO unless you conform to the socieital ideal, you're screwed?

Former Member

Are you allowed to go around saying how much you hate them, go to there house and hurl abuse at them, as long as you don't touch them or their property?

Former Member

Originally posted by the doc horatio
Are you allowed to go around saying how much you hate them, go to there house and hurl abuse at them, as long as you don't touch them or their property?

What about the psychological damage? Bullying could lead to mental illness and maybe even suicide.

Former Member

I think I can forestall sole's response: physical harm is objective, emotional harm is subjective.

Former Member

Originally posted by the doc horatio
Are you allowed to go around saying how much you hate them, go to there house and hurl abuse at them, as long as you don't touch them or their property?

If you go in their house, you violate property rights (if you go without their permission!).

I don't understand your collective bemusement at property rights since they exist now. They exist really in every capitalist society.

Former Member

Originally posted by TheKingOfGlasgow
So discrimination in this case would be ok? SO unless you conform to the socieital ideal, you're screwed?

What societal ideal?

Former Member

Yes, but there is more to people's lives than property.

Former Member

Originally posted by the sole liber
What societal ideal?

Yeah, society wouldn't exist, right? Just a collection of individuals.
Sounds shit to me.

Former Member

Right, are you discriminative? Do you like anyone who isn't a WASP? Do you think that people should allow to be discriminative regardless of how it affects the positive rights of others? So long as person or property are not affected then this is ok? Why is socialism a bad thing? Going by your view, then unless you were the most widely accepted colour/ethnicity etc, you would be an outcast. Would this work int he oppoisite direction? Would you be happy if all bank managers had to be black to work in a black neighbour, or had to be austrialian to work in an Aussie theme bar? Extreme example they may be, but realistics one as well I think.

Former Member

Originally posted by the sole liber
If you go in their house, you violate property rights (if you go without their permission!).

I don't understand your collective bemusement at property rights since they exist now. They exist really in every capitalist society.

So you can walk up to their front door and do so?

Former Member

No there would be laws against harassment.

Former Member

Do libertarians actually believe in a govt to make the laws you talk about?

Former Member

Originally posted by Blagsta
Yes, but there is more to people's lives than property.

:yes:

Life in a libertarian society sounds pretty souless