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And im with Rolly on this one...
I do think that they had a fear of wmd's, which I wouldn't blame them (especially not, when looking through Saddams record). I just think that their fault was that they put too much weight on speculations instead of the real deal.
But you are correct in the fact that I believe the Iraqis to have a greater chance of living a freee life, than under Saddam.
Moroccan, you don't listen.
I have at least stated twice before in this thread that Iraq is still dependant on a lot of help.
Then again, should I expect anything else from you, after all you have the tendency to repeat yourself over and over again.
Are you really that oblivious to the truth that you need me to trawl through scores of articles about how many the war has killed?
So what? A few die in the short-term to thousands more can carry on living in the long term? Oh the horror.
BTW - What does Bin Laden have to do with anything?
What did I just say?
Ah, so you think the people living under these 'tribal leaders' want to live in fear every day? In poverty, disease etc?
True. But what's that got to do with Iraq?
Slight exaggeration there, don't you think?
Anyway, those deaths were colatiral damage, Saddam murdering them wasn't.
they aint arguing, its called debate. Nobody is being insulting so all i can say is :
DING DING, round 2
Just to make it clear before we go any further, I don't think Iraq had nuclear weapons, purely because they weren't yet capable of developing them. Though that's not to say they weren't currently doing so, or that they didn't have chemical/biological weapons.
Jacq - sorry I got mixed up after reading all the posts
you realy don't understand ...what is it ...might is right? my side always right? becuase bush says that god talks to him directly and told him to invade iraq ...thats what dubya actualy said to the prime minister of palestine!
and jacq ...if i keep repeating myself it's becuase it is what i see as the truth. people keep asking the questions ...so far, everything us leftie anti war stick your head in the sand kind of people said would happen if iraq was invaded ...has come to pass.
remember ...george bush is a war criminal and even this will at some point become reality for you just like everything else has done so far.
What the fuck are you talking about now?
Yep.
Rememeber all the stupid comments on here when the war started? People saying that millions of Iraqis' would die in this war, and all that.
You'll get all these people who really don't have a clue, jumping on the bandwagon and going on these marches and protests, because it's trendy. Not to mention all the neds and other associated muppets who just want their mugs on telly.
Fair enough if people are actually against the war, but a hell of a lot of people are just gonna protest for the sake of protesting, Then, as usual, the organisers will add on a random number, to make it look like more people showed up than actually did.
no ...you said the following;
Thousands of Iraqis were dying each year under Saddam,
So what? A few die in the short-term to thousands more can carry on living in the long term? Oh the horror.
you have no idea of the suffering cuased ...for what again? you realy believe we are going to let them have a democracy where they vote for who they want ...what if they vote comunist ...what if they vote for saddam ...or an extreme muslim state? sorry but your in with the fairies if you believe the democracy bollox ...by the way ...the very nature of democracy means it is impossible to FORCE it on people!
BTW - What does Bin Laden have to do with anything?
the bush family and the binladen family have been business partners and close family freinds for nearly 30 yrs. ther bin laden family were flown out of america on specialy chartered flights by george bush senior on 9/11.
Ah, so you think the people living under these 'tribal leaders' want to live in fear every day? In poverty, disease etc?
iraq was a wealthy country with a very modern infrastrucure. good jobs. good investment opportunities. a very modern capital city. where do you get this idea of disease and poverty?
ah ...like all nations have poor people and honeless people you mean ...they had excellent medical faclities etc until we imposed ten years of sanctions in which even sick children were denied the most basic of medicines. an estimated 1/4 million children have died as a result of the first gulf war..(gbush senior) depleted uranium dust blowing around the streets.
True. But what's that got to do with Iraq?
israel should be invaded by your logic ...human rights abuses ...weapons of mass destruction flaunting of UN and security council rules time and time and time again.
Anyway, those deaths were colatiral damage, Saddam murdering them wasn't.
you realy don't understand ...what is it ...might is right? my side always right? becuase bush says that god talks to him directly and told him to invade iraq ...thats what dubya actualy said to the prime minister of palestine!
and jacq ...if i keep repeating myself it's becuase it is what i see as the truth. people keep asking the questions ...so far, everything us leftie anti war stick your head in the sand kind of people said would happen if iraq was invaded ...has come to pass.
remember ...george bush is a war criminal and even this will at some point become reality for you just like everything else has done so far.
What the fuck are you on about?
At least attempt to formulate yourself coherently.
Yeah, so sorry I don't have the time or the patience to decipher each of your inane posts before replying to them.
Rolly might not be the most coherent poster, but it should be able to work out what he's on about.
No-one is denying that Saddam was an evil dictator. But this is not reason enough to declare war on another country. There are evil dictators and despotic regimes all over the world(Saudi Arabia is a good example, but they are friends with the US, so out of the question. The vast majority of those involved in the 9/11 attacks also happened to be Saudi, including Bin Laden), but why did we attack Iraq?
1. That old chestnut, oil.
2. Bush trying to finish off what his daddy started.
3. Capitalising on 9/11 and trying to put connections in people's heads between Bin Laden and Saddam, when in fact the US government is probably more closely linked with either... Don't forget the US supported and armed Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war and what Rolly said about business dealings and friendship with the Bin Laden family is true, and has been going on for many years.
4. Business opportunities in the inevitable "re-construction". Many large contracts went to Haliburton, a huge oil services company which boasts Dick Cheney, the vice-president, on its board.
5. General imperialistic ideals.
6. Fear, and wish to instil fear in other people.
I was agreeing with you though
So if they are going to pump money into having so many thousands and thousands of people killed, they shouldnt act so outraged when the same money is used to kill their own. When the money is used to fight them, to attack the towers and so on (which, would never have happened if they hadnt given money to known terrorist leaders in order for them to kill others).
I think there is a lot of hypocricy going on with the Bush Administration - thats one of the reasons ill be protesting on thursday.
There is also the issue that this was based on 'The War on Terror' but it will quite obviously make that worse, as can be seen with the constant attacks on the US and UK troops.
More than anything it is the double standards that get to me, there are many leaders around the world who are nasty to their own people as others have mentioned. Some even have much larger reserves of chemical/bio or even nukes, what do we do? Nothing.
Also, it is highly likely that the people there will want to vote into power a theocracy, as in a religious state, like Iran or others. But how can the US let that happen if they are there to bring them democracy? Or are the Iraqis going to be really allowed to choose their own state.
Also what do we do when the quite probable civil war breaks out between the north and the south?
and as for kiezos concern about people being in poverty and hunger becuase of some despot leader ...maybe he should ask why the americans are not attacking north korea. the people there are seriously suffering.
waiting for another reply such as 'what d fuck u on about now' ...great debater that he is.
Has anyone here actually spoken to a member of our armed services who has been out there?
I have. Believe me, when you hear the response that they have recieved and see the pictures that they have brought back with them, you would not be saying that.
Yes, I agree that the motive for war was oil revenues.
Perhaps you should look at how much we rely on this natural resource before you suggest that this isn't a good reason to fight.
Added to that was my personal reason for supporting the war. People in Iraq now have some of the freedom which we take for granted. Freedom from torture? Aren't these things worth fighting for? If not, what is?
Your right to protest this week is something which has been denied Iraqis for 30+ years and yes the UK and US played a part in that. But does that mean that we should have allowed it to continue? Surely we should condemn our Govt for that, rather than for stopping such a regime?
And no, things in Iraq aren't perfect yet. By a long shot. So let's give it time, let's give the Iraqis time to sort themselves out but let's support that. We could withdraw today but the country would collapse - is that really what you want to see happen?
Let me ask another question...
What do you actually want? What is it that the protestors actually want?
Obviously this has nothing to do with Iraq, but, well we reap what we sow.
Good question MoK, I raised this very question when there was the last march.
Sorry - I was still trying to sift through numerous lines of '
' to actually see what your fucking point was, dumbass.
OK, I'm going to say it one more time, so try and pay attention.
What does North Korea have to do with the war on Iraq?
I read somewhere about how a tiny proportion of the money spent by the American government was used to give to Saddam was then in turn given to certain other leaders in terrorism and so forth. I cant say what exactly because i dont know the details off the top of my head, i could try and find them.
However, none of what we are debating about really matters. Because as much as each of us thinks we know the truth, thinks we know what is best. We dont. None us do because weve all been persuaded by the media and government into thinking a variety of things. No one really knows the facts we can only specualte based on what weve heard, but who is to say what weve heard is true?
Thats the point i want to make, nobody knows because weve been lied to, confused, heard the government say one thing and do another and so forth.
None of us knows the ins and outs of any of this. Which is what makes GWB and TB even more annoying, and gives me even less respect for either of them as 'leaders' or criminals of war, as i think of them,
i think the protesters want ...to voice their anger at bush and blair for taking us into an illegal war ...make the public aware how the people have been conned ...make mr bush as uncomfortable as possible in the slim chance he may see the error of his ways ...let the arab and muslim world know we don't support this american administration ...let tony blair know, he blew it with the electorate ...etc etc. but i don't think anyone would be demanding troops out now ...no one with any sense of the fucking mess we have reduced iraq to anyway.
Protesters want their voices heard. As you have said before, write a letter to your MP. But for the majority of people they see this as pointless. People bothering to give up a days pay to march, going out of their way to march about in the cold, i think, is going to have a bigger impact. The government is already aware that people dont agree, but thats not enough a lot of people wish to make it more obvious.
Also, the protest originally was used as a warning to Blair. That so many people dont want Bush here, and if he is to come we will protest. Once youve made that threat, you follow it through. Protesting is one of the only ways most people feel they can be heard.
I think the comparison between North Korea and Iraq stems from the idea that, why did we choose Iraq and not the other?
North Korea is clearly trying to build up a set of nukes which must be more dangerous than the possible chem/bio wepons that Saddam had at some point.
I think this leads people to think that it was about oil, or some other reason, which makes them angry.